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July 23rd 2012, 07:47 AM #601
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
I singled this quote out not for personal reasons but because if we do not see the prophecy within the pattern that God gave to Moses on the Mount that lies within both the tabernacle and the law, we are not going to see much else in the Bible, and as the Bible teaches, God's children perish because of the lack of knowledge being taught.
Yes, the bronze laver was for the priest but we are to become kings and priests unto God that is seen in the pattern of development of the tabernacle in the wilderness got its start in the surrounding curtain, and ends with the Ark of the covenant.
The priest washing his hands symbolize repentance from dead works as does washing of feet prophecy being prepared to walk on the path of righteousness (Jesus washing the feet of the disciples) that we are called to walk. Water is symbolic of the word and the Holy Spirit, therefore as Paul said, we are washed by the pure water of the word that is spirit.
The outside curtains represent the time that the law would be preached seen in the square-foot measurement of 1500 the same as the dimensions of the holy room of 2000 cubits do for the time of the church of Pentecost to rule over God's people prior to the time of the millennium and perfection seen in the room of the holiest where God appeared.
Malachi spoke of us when the Lord told him that he would purify the sons of Levi. We are those sons of Levi and the 1st of our 3 baptisms does start SYMBOLICALLY at the bronze lever. Without being washed in water of the word and learning the obedience needed to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit that takes one out of the outer court and into the first room the christian will always remain carnal.
DougPlease read and support “Modern Day Prophet” by Douglas Duncan; Button for free Google preview of the first 3 1/2 chapters appears on this bookdepository.com page http://www.bookdepository.com/Modern.../9781457502941
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July 23rd 2012, 08:46 PM #602
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
I may not yet be as old as dirt, but dirt and I are starting to have an awful lot in common... Stephen Donaldson - Author of my favorite series (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant)
S'cuse me... oops, I'm sorry... I didn't see your sign - Bill Engvall
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August 14th 2012, 03:58 PM #603
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
MB,
BAPTISM
“[Jesus speaking] …for John [the Baptist] truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now” (Acts 1:5). In fact it was ten days later that the Holy Spirit came upon them. The Holy Spirit was poured out on them on the Day of Pentecost or 50 days after Jesus’ resurrection and ten days after His ascension.
The Doctrine of Baptism
In the Book of Acts, Luke mentions Baptism repeatedly, and if you don’t understand the doctrine of baptism, there are many passages in the New Testament that will confuse you. For example, in Acts 18, we read of Apollos:
“Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John [the Baptist]. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” Acts 18:24-26
Notice that this Apollos had repented and been baptized by John and he had most likely had accepted Jesus as his Lord. He was saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom or the Gospel of Circumcision or the Law. Priscilla and Aquila gave him a clearer picture, especially about Paul’s Gospel of Grace. Although Luke was a Circumcision apostle, he too helped Paul.
“And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace [Paul’s Gospel].” (Acts 18:27)
Origin or Baptism
Is Baptism a Jewish or Christian ritual? Before we answer this let’s look at John the Baptist. When the Pharisees came to John the Baptist who was baptizing many Jews, they did not ask what he was doing. Rather they questioned his authority to baptize. They did not question baptism because it was a Jewish ritual or the symbolic cleansing with water. There are many instances in Jewish Scripture of the sprinkling with water. Often, it’s a sprinkling with blood, sometimes mixed with oil or with water. Other times it is a sprinkling with purification water, whereby the priest would symbolically cleanse the people by sprinkling them. And God commanded the priest to also sprinkle the altar, its vessels, the Tabernacle (temporary tent while in the wilderness). Moses even once sprinkled the Book of the Scriptures that he had written. In Mark 7:4, we read that the Jews even baptized their eating utensils and couches—and they did this daily!
“When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.” ( Mark 7:4) Note: In the Greek, “washing” is translated bastismos which means baptize.
In the New King James Bible, some form of the English word sprinkle, sprinkles, sprinkled, sprinkling appears sixty times, almost always referring to this Jewish ritual of baptism. Fifty-three times sprinkling appears in the Hebrew Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament and all seven instances are in the Book of Hebrews. One reason for this is that baptism is a Jewish ritual. And because it was a Jewish ritual, early Christians were confused about baptism. Actually, the early Christians were confused about everything Jewish. How should they transition from Israel’s Covenant of Circumcision (or Law) to the Body of Christ and its Covenant of Grace. It was very confusing!
Israel’s Baptism Was Symbolic
When God cut off Israel and gave Paul a new Covenant of Grace, there was much confusion. God first communicated to the Twelve that He had bypassed Israel and would go directly to the Gentiles when He sent Peter to the Centurion Cornelius. God poured out the Holy Spirit on Cornelius without requiring Cornelius and his family to be circumcised. As the ritual of circumcision is a synonym for law, there was no better way to convey this to Peter. Peter was “astonished.” And to make matters more confusing, this new “Apostle to the Gentiles” was teaching that you don’t have to get circumcised, observe Sabbaths, keep the feasts, or keep the law. Then Peter’s disciples would come behind Paul and teach that they had to be circumcised. But unless we realize that there was a transition from Judaism to Christianity (because God cut off Israel), confusion abounds with us as well.
Israel had many baptisms which is why the Book of Hebrews or the epistle to the Hebrews uses the plural “doctrine of baptisms” (Heb. 6:2). And in Hebrews 9:10, we read, “various washings” or baptisms. The Book of Hebrews describes these baptisms as symbolic.
“It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshy ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.” Heb. 9:9-10
Now Hebrews tells us that these rituals were symbolic. They were not fundamentally moral ordinances such as murder, theft, rape, kidnapping that could not be otherwise. So the writer of Hebrews admonishes the Jews to move beyond the doctrine of baptisms to the deeper truths of God. But even though symbolic, it’s easy to see how the Jews could get stuck in this ritual and not want to move on. But if you get stuck in the symbolic, you will rob yourself of the substance or the reality—which is Jesus Christ. All of the sprinklings or baptisms or cleansings or washings pointed to the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.
“… to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.” Heb. 12:24
“Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Heb. 9:12-14
Let’s look at a typical passage on baptism in the Old Testament:
“[God speaking] Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.” Ezek. 36:24-26
This water can’t really cleanse you from all your filthiness. This is a symbol of Jesus Christ.
When we say that baptism was a Jewish ritual, some Christians automatically translate that to mean that with the New Testament, baptism became a new baptism or a Christian ritual. It was no longer the old Jewish ritual; now it was a Christian ritual.
But the New Testament baptism began with John the Baptist and he was a Jew baptizing Jews. And the baptism that John was doing was not Christian but was in accordance with the Mosaic Law. It was recognized by Jews as their traditional baptism. The only questions the Pharisees had for John was by what authority was he baptizing, why was he doing it now, and for what reason? Even those who hated God recognized that John’s baptizing was a traditional Jewish ritual. He was never challenged as to the ritual itself.
“Now this is the testimony of John [the Baptist], when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who are you?’” John 1:19
“And they asked him, saying, ‘Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ…’” John 1:25
Another Form of Baptism
Now when Jesus said, “John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” this was another new baptism ritual. They already had many baptism rituals, but this was a new one. Now this baptism was the greatest of their baptisms in that it was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
“And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions, and also My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.” Joel 2:28-29
Baptism Did Not Save
John the Baptist baptized thousands of Jews. And Jesus baptized more Jews than John though Jesus Himself did not baptize (John 4:1). Yet, on the day Jesus was crucified, the majority of Israel shouted, “We have no king but Caesar.” Most of the Jews that were baptized never became believers.
One Baptism for the Body of Christ
While the Jews had many baptisms, we in the Body of Christ have one baptism. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:46
The first covenant that God made with Abraham was the Covenant of Grace (Gen. 15). God put Abraham to sleep so that Abraham could do nothing. The Gospel of Grace that God gave to Paul requires nothing from us. It is faith plus nothing. When you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit even does the baptizing. Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God gave the Covenant of Circumcision (or law) and commanded Abraham to circumcise. Circumcision is a synonym for law. Israel will always be identified as the “people of the circumcision.”
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13
“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” Rom. 6:3
In First Corinthians, Paul drops a bombshell: “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” (1 Cor. 1:17). Now many interpret this to mean that Paul was just too busy to baptize and that preaching was his priority, but baptism was still required. But baptism for the Body of Christ is not the Jewish fleshy ritual of the cleansing of the flesh by water, but a Spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, into His death. Now let’s say that a man accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and the Holy Spirit baptizes him into the Body, should we add a fleshy, symbolic cleansing ritual to this to make it better? I think not! When we do his, we are adding works to grace. And Paul wrote that if we add works to grace, then ”it is no longer grace.” Paul forbid observances of any of the Jewish law: circumcision, Sabbaths, diets, clothing, feasts, meat sacrificed to idols. “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths” (Col. 2:16). Some Christians reason that after the Cross, Peter and his followers had mistakenly put themselves under the law. But God did not give Israel a Gospel of Grace. And laws such as keeping the Sabbath, circumcision, certain feasts, were perpetual ordinances for Israel. While Paul and his followers could eat meat sacrificed to idols, a Jew could not (Rev. 2:14).
Even Paul Was Initially Confused
It must be remembered that Paul was a Jewish Pharisee, marinated in Jewish law. So it is understandable that Paul began his ministry with baptizing people. But, as he received the full revelation of “the grace of God that was given to me [Paul]” became clear, Paul stopped baptizing.
Paul wrote, “Now I say this that each of you says, ‘I am of Paul.’ or ‘I am of Cephas.’ or ‘I am of Christ.’ Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? …for Christ did not send me to baptize.” (1 Cor. 1:12-17). Notice that he includes “I am of Christ.” He left no wiggle room for anyone to use the gospel of Jesus Christ to justify baptism within the Body. Paul even wrote, “I thank God that I baptized none of you” 1 Cor. 1:14). You could not get a Baptist minister to say that even if you held a gun to his head.
The Great Commission
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mat. 28:19). Was Jesus talking to Paul? No! He was talking to the Twelve (Israel) under the Gospel of Circumcision. Paul would not be commissioned for another year.
And, are you ready for a bombshell? Israel never fulfilled the Great Commission. I realize that at first blush, this is astonishing. But it is a major key in unraveling the conundrums of the New Testament. There is no Biblical record of any of the Twelve circumcision apostles preaching to any Gentiles (other than Peter to the Centurion Cornelius). This was after God cut off Israel (as a nation), and commissioned Paul. And what must be pointed out is that Cornelius and members of his household were saved without being circumcised. Peter and “those of the circumcision were astonished” (Acts 10:45-46). Peter would later learn that God had begun accepting Gentiles by grace through faith alone (new Dispensation).
“Now they [Jews] which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but the Jews only” (Acts 11:19). Christians must realize that Jesus’ return to Israel to establish their kingdom was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Christ. Israel rejected their risen Christ. Israel, as a nation, was cut off and as a consequence, their Great Commission was put on hold.
Baptism Disputes Have Fractured the Body of Christ
Let’s think about the doctrine of baptism that has brought division to millions of believers—splitting churches, preventing fellowship, over a ritual that takes about two minutes of a believer’s Christian life time. Millions have lost the opportunity for unity, fellowship, and working together for the advancement of God’s goals because of symbolic ritual. Is there a greater disgrace upon the gospel of Christ?
Baptismal disagreements have divided the worship and ministry of more believers that any other doctrinal debate: Do we baptize infants or adults? In water or in the Spirit? Sprinkled or submerged? By what formula: Do we baptize in the name of Jesus only? Or in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Does your baptism transfer with your membership if you move and go to another church? Someone even posed the question if the water is not deep enough for a full dunking, is the baptism valid?
Would Paul have tolerated this kind of division over baptism? He was disgusted by it. He would point out that to stop the division and in-fighting, he had stopped baptizing altogether. “God did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.”
While Israel has a Covenant of Circumcision which is the cutting off of the flesh and works of the flesh under the law (like baptism) the Gospel of Grace is faith plus nothing. We are saved by grace apart from any works of the flesh or keeping of the law. So baptism is neither required nor commanded of Christians today.
TeeJay
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August 15th 2012, 09:41 AM #604
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
God commands all men everywhere to repent. Are you saying repentance is not required to be saved?? Jesus said, repentance and forgiveness of
sins will be preached beginning in Jerusalem. Paul said, He became the source of salvation to all who obey him. Are you saying obedience is not
required to be saved?? To the Jews who believed Him, Jesus said, "if you obey my commands, then you really are my disciples."
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August 15th 2012, 09:47 AM #605
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Then logically the above text cannot be used to validate the neccessity of the Holy Spirit for salvation. In John it says, by that He meant the Holy
Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were LATER to receive. Up to that time, the Holy Spirit had not been given because Jesus had not yet been
glorified"
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August 15th 2012, 10:00 AM #606
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
NO, Paul is placing a high priority on faith(whatever your defintion of faith is) apart from circmumcision, kosher diet, etc. In context, that is what
he means by "works of the law", the Mosaic law. Look around the book of Romans, he is constantly referring to circumcision, that is what he means
by works of law.
The faith that Abraham had began in Genesis chapter 12, continued on in chapters 13 and 14, finally in chapter 15 God declares him righteous for his
faith. Then in chapter 17 he is again justified when he attempted to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abrahams faith was an ongoing continual process, not
a one time event!!
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August 16th 2012, 10:43 AM #607
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Arrow 1,
Repentance is required for salvation. God does not allow us to forgive each other unless we repent (Luke 17:3). There is a homosexual church near where I live that basically tells God: "God, You will accept me as a Christian homosexual." If we come to God, we must play on His sheet of music and not ours. Paul teaches that the law is not made for the righteous but for sinners and it is our tutor to show us our wickedness and our need for a Savior.
And Jesus said many things TO ISRAEL that do not apply to us as members of the Body of Christ. For example, circumcision, Sabbath keeping, feasts that are "perpetual" covenants for the nation of Israel that is not required for members of the Body of Christ. To unravel the conundrums of Scripture, we must separate Israel from the Body, law from grace, circumcision from no circumcision.
TeeJa
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August 16th 2012, 11:50 AM #608
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
ugh, Tee-Jay. Don't respond with a cut-and-paste, certainly not such a lengthy one that raises many points of discussion. Choose one point you want to discuss.
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August 16th 2012, 12:11 PM #609
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
RB,
I'm new to this thread. Are you a moderator "commanding" me to post shorter threads" What I posted is a Bible study I use to teach on this subject. Yes, I cut and pasted it, but I wrote it myself. Not to argue with a moderator (if you are one?), but can't you respond to any portion of my post that you disagree with?
TeeJay
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August 16th 2012, 12:38 PM #610
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Arrow, circumcision is a synonym for the whole law, “the weightier matters of the law without leaving the lesser undone,” as Jesus admonished His Jewish followers. Why did God give this strange rite to Israel?NO, Paul is placing a high priority on faith (whatever your definition of faith is) apart from circmumcision, kosher diet, etc. In context, that is what
he means by "works of the law", the Mosaic law. Look around the book of Romans, he is constantly referring to circumcision, that is what he means
by works of law.
Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Christ (God the Son) became flesh, and was cut off. God told Abraham: “He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:13). God had also said to Abraham, “in you all” nations will be blessed (Gen. 12:3), and in Abraham, because Jesus came from Abraham’s loins, and from David’s body (2 Sam. 7:12). Thus, the Covenant of Circumcision pointed to Jesus Christ, who “became flesh” (John 1:14) and then the “Messiah” was “cut off” (Dan. 9:26; Mat. 27:46, 50). The Jews, called the Circumcision, the people of the Covenant of Circumcision, were themselves cut off (Rom. 11:20, 22). So, too, Christ, the King of the Jews (Mat. 2:2; 27:11), became flesh and was cut off. Thus the circumcision of Jesus Christ according to the Law on the eighth day (Luke 2:21) foreshadowed the very purpose of His coming. Consider also that God used the Hebrew word silver when He said to Abraham, “he who is bought with your money [silver].” Then recall two things: that the High Priest bought Christ with “thirty pieces of silver” from Judas (Mat. 26:15); and also that Jesus was born a Jew. Thus, throughout all history, He was the One both “born in your house [Israel] and… bought with your silver.” Thus the Covenant of Circumcision uniquely pointed to Christ.
And we must also realize that the Covenant of Circumcision represented the law. Jesus Christ became flesh and voluntarily was circumcised and baptized thus putting Himself under the very covenant that He made with Abraham. While Abraham’s descendants were unable to keep the Covenant of Circumcision (the law), Jesus Christ did keep the law perfectly and fulfilled the covenant which Abraham and the Jews could not keep.
So Paul admonishes us in the Body of Christ, that if we get circumcised (as a religious rite), we are obligated to keep the whole law. “Circumcision profited you nothing.”
Under the covenant of circumcision, the Jews had to have faith and keep the law and do good works. But what we must understand is that God can add grace to works (as Peter said in Acts 15:11). But, and this is a big but, God can’t add works to grace. Grace is a free gift, and if God adds works to a gift, it is no longer free. You then have to earn it.The faith that Abraham had began in Genesis chapter 12, continued on in chapters 13 and 14, finally in chapter 15 God declares him righteous for his
faith. Then in chapter 17 he is again justified when he attempted to sacrifice his son Isaac. Abrahams faith was an ongoing continual process, not
a one time event!!
And when Paul admonished us not to partake of the law (as God admonished Adam not to partake of the Tree), he was not talking about just symbolic law (such as circumcision, baptism, Sabbath keeping); he was talking about the whole law. He referred to the law as a “ministry of death engraved on stone” (2 Cor. 3:7). Last I looked, the Ten Commandments were engraved on stones. No?
TeeJayLast edited by Bill the Cat; August 16th 2012 at 01:16 PM.
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August 16th 2012, 12:49 PM #611
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Jesus said many things to the Jews that He did not say to us. For example, He told His followers, "These signs shall follow you. You will lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. You can step on Diamondbacks and their poison will not hurt you, etc.[paraphrased]." Now for anyone who thinks that what Jesus promised to Israel is for us, they can come to my ranch in Texas and I will let them step on some Rattlers.
TeeJay
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August 16th 2012, 01:32 PM #612
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
I'm not a moderator, and welcome to the forum. Here is the policy about Post Length from the Campus Decorum, which says:
And from the Board Etiquette section just beneath it:
Copyright isn't a problem in your case, since you're posting your own material. But excessive post length with too many different points is. As to whether I agree or disagree with your post, I haven't even given the content a look yet. All I saw was a wall of unformatted text, lacking even space between paragraphs.
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August 16th 2012, 06:29 PM #613
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August 16th 2012, 10:37 PM #614
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Note that they were explicitly baptized by Paul or someone with him after hearing about Jesus.
It is you that seems to be confused. The baptism of the Jews was fundamentally different from the baptism of John, which in turn was different from Christian baptism. The first was a self-washing for ritual purity, and was done repeatedly by at least some Jewish sects of the first century; the second was a once-done baptism by immersion for the forgiveness of sins; the third is similar to the second, with the additional purpose of marking the entrance into the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.Origin or Baptism
Is Baptism a Jewish or Christian ritual? Before we answer this let’s look at John the Baptist. When the Pharisees came to John the Baptist who was baptizing many Jews, they did not ask what he was doing. Rather they questioned his authority to baptize. They did not question baptism because it was a Jewish ritual or the symbolic cleansing with water. There are many instances in Jewish Scripture of the sprinkling with water. Often, it’s a sprinkling with blood, sometimes mixed with oil or with water. Other times it is a sprinkling with purification water, whereby the priest would symbolically cleanse the people by sprinkling them. And God commanded the priest to also sprinkle the altar, its vessels, the Tabernacle (temporary tent while in the wilderness). Moses even once sprinkled the Book of the Scriptures that he had written. In Mark 7:4, we read that the Jews even baptized their eating utensils and couches—and they did this daily!
“When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.” ( Mark 7:4) Note: In the Greek, “washing” is translated bastismos which means baptize.
In the New King James Bible, some form of the English word sprinkle, sprinkles, sprinkled, sprinkling appears sixty times, almost always referring to this Jewish ritual of baptism. Fifty-three times sprinkling appears in the Hebrew Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament and all seven instances are in the Book of Hebrews. One reason for this is that baptism is a Jewish ritual. And because it was a Jewish ritual, early Christians were confused about baptism. Actually, the early Christians were confused about everything Jewish. How should they transition from Israel’s Covenant of Circumcision (or Law) to the Body of Christ and its Covenant of Grace. It was very confusing!
Nope. That was an explicit extension of the New Covenant to Gentiles, not a rejection of all Jews.Israel’s Baptism Was Symbolic
When God cut off Israel and gave Paul a new Covenant of Grace, there was much confusion. God first communicated to the Twelve that He had bypassed Israel and would go directly to the Gentiles when He sent Peter to the Centurion Cornelius.
You are indeed confused here. Christian baptism has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. And since when did Peter's disciples come behind Paul and teach circumcision?God poured out the Holy Spirit on Cornelius without requiring Cornelius and his family to be circumcised. As the ritual of circumcision is a synonym for law, there was no better way to convey this to Peter. Peter was “astonished.” And to make matters more confusing, this new “Apostle to the Gentiles” was teaching that you don’t have to get circumcised, observe Sabbaths, keep the feasts, or keep the law. Then Peter’s disciples would come behind Paul and teach that they had to be circumcised. But unless we realize that there was a transition from Judaism to Christianity (because God cut off Israel), confusion abounds with us as well.
And none of the Jewish baptisms were analogous to Christian baptism. In Heb 6:1-3, baptism is is described as part of the foundation of Christianity along with repentance from dead works, resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment (among other things).Israel had many baptisms which is why the Book of Hebrews or the epistle to the Hebrews uses the plural “doctrine of baptisms” (Heb. 6:2). And in Hebrews 9:10, we read, “various washings” or baptisms. The Book of Hebrews describes these baptisms as symbolic.
“It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience—concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshy ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.” Heb. 9:9-10
Now Hebrews tells us that these rituals were symbolic. They were not fundamentally moral ordinances such as murder, theft, rape, kidnapping that could not be otherwise. So the writer of Hebrews admonishes the Jews to move beyond the doctrine of baptisms to the deeper truths of God. But even though symbolic, it’s easy to see how the Jews could get stuck in this ritual and not want to move on. But if you get stuck in the symbolic, you will rob yourself of the substance or the reality—which is Jesus Christ. All of the sprinklings or baptisms or cleansings or washings pointed to the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.
It is symbolic of the New Covenant in Jesus Christ, and it can indeed cleanse you from all your filthiness.“… to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.” Heb. 12:24
“Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Heb. 9:12-14
Let’s look at a typical passage on baptism in the Old Testament:
“[God speaking] Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.” Ezek. 36:24-26
This water can’t really cleanse you from all your filthiness. This is a symbol of Jesus Christ.
This is actually a big honking clue that John's baptism was different than the Jewish norm. It was something they expected the Messiah to do!When we say that baptism was a Jewish ritual, some Christians automatically translate that to mean that with the New Testament, baptism became a new baptism or a Christian ritual. It was no longer the old Jewish ritual; now it was a Christian ritual.
But the New Testament baptism began with John the Baptist and he was a Jew baptizing Jews. And the baptism that John was doing was not Christian but was in accordance with the Mosaic Law. It was recognized by Jews as their traditional baptism. The only questions the Pharisees had for John was by what authority was he baptizing, why was he doing it now, and for what reason? Even those who hated God recognized that John’s baptizing was a traditional Jewish ritual. He was never challenged as to the ritual itself.
“Now this is the testimony of John [the Baptist], when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who are you?’” John 1:19
“And they asked him, saying, ‘Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ…’” John 1:25
Er, that was Pentecost, not a baptism by water.Another Form of Baptism
Now when Jesus said, “John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit,” this was another new baptism ritual. They already had many baptism rituals, but this was a new one. Now this baptism was the greatest of their baptisms in that it was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
“And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions, and also My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.” Joel 2:28-29
You're making several unsupported assertions here. The first is probably true if John was doing it for any length of time. The second is possibly true; all we know is that, at some point, more people were being baptized by Jesus' disciples than John. The third is manifestly false. The last we really have no way of knowing.Baptism Did Not Save
John the Baptist baptized thousands of Jews. And Jesus baptized more Jews than John though Jesus Himself did not baptize (John 4:1). Yet, on the day Jesus was crucified, the majority of Israel shouted, “We have no king but Caesar.” Most of the Jews that were baptized never became believers.
This is nonsense. In Acts 8:5-17, as also in the account of the conversion of Cornelius, baptism is explicitly separate from receiving the Holy Spirit. It is also explicitly separate in the next chapter's account of Paul's conversion. It is also explicitly separate in Acts 19, in Ephesus, the same place where Paul writes of "one baptism" - so that probably doesn't mean what you think it means. Paul was not in the habit of saying one thing and writing another.One Baptism for the Body of Christ
While the Jews had many baptisms, we in the Body of Christ have one baptism. Paul wrote to the Ephesians:
“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and father of all who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:46
The first covenant that God made with Abraham was the Covenant of Grace (Gen. 15). God put Abraham to sleep so that Abraham could do nothing. The Gospel of Grace that God gave to Paul requires nothing from us. It is faith plus nothing. When you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit even does the baptizing.
Christian baptism is not a part of the law. You're not even making the argument that it is, merely assuming so.Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God gave the Covenant of Circumcision (or law) and commanded Abraham to circumcise. Circumcision is a synonym for law. Israel will always be identified as the “people of the circumcision.”
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:13
“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” Rom. 6:3
In First Corinthians, Paul drops a bombshell: “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” (1 Cor. 1:17). Now many interpret this to mean that Paul was just too busy to baptize and that preaching was his priority, but baptism was still required. But baptism for the Body of Christ is not the Jewish fleshy ritual of the cleansing of the flesh by water, but a Spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, into His death. Now let’s say that a man accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and the Holy Spirit baptizes him into the Body, should we add a fleshy, symbolic cleansing ritual to this to make it better? I think not! When we do his, we are adding works to grace. And Paul wrote that if we add works to grace, then ”it is no longer grace.” Paul forbid observances of any of the Jewish law: circumcision, Sabbaths, diets, clothing, feasts, meat sacrificed to idols. “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths” (Col. 2:16). Some Christians reason that after the Cross, Peter and his followers had mistakenly put themselves under the law. But God did not give Israel a Gospel of Grace. And laws such as keeping the Sabbath, circumcision, certain feasts, were perpetual ordinances for Israel. While Paul and his followers could eat meat sacrificed to idols, a Jew could not (Rev. 2:14).
You deceitfully quoted 1 Cor 1:14 out of context, for Paul clearly baptized some people in Corinth. You also completely missed the point Paul was making. He wasn't disparaging baptism, but sectarianism based on who had baptized who.Even Paul Was Initially Confused
It must be remembered that Paul was a Jewish Pharisee, marinated in Jewish law. So it is understandable that Paul began his ministry with baptizing people. But, as he received the full revelation of “the grace of God that was given to me [Paul]” became clear, Paul stopped baptizing.
Paul wrote, “Now I say this that each of you says, ‘I am of Paul.’ or ‘I am of Cephas.’ or ‘I am of Christ.’ Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? …for Christ did not send me to baptize.” (1 Cor. 1:12-17). Notice that he includes “I am of Christ.” He left no wiggle room for anyone to use the gospel of Jesus Christ to justify baptism within the Body. Paul even wrote, “I thank God that I baptized none of you” 1 Cor. 1:14). You could not get a Baptist minister to say that even if you held a gun to his head.
*yawn* Nice argument from silence. Tradition says the Twelve (and the Seventy) went all sorts of places and preached the Gospel to Gentiles. The Jews needed to be reached first, however, since AD 70 was coming, when Jesus came in judgment on Jerusalem by means of the Romans (just like God visited judgment earlier on Israel through the Assyrians and Judah through the Babylonians).The Great Commission
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mat. 28:19). Was Jesus talking to Paul? No! He was talking to the Twelve (Israel) under the Gospel of Circumcision. Paul would not be commissioned for another year.
And, are you ready for a bombshell? Israel never fulfilled the Great Commission. I realize that at first blush, this is astonishing. But it is a major key in unraveling the conundrums of the New Testament. There is no Biblical record of any of the Twelve circumcision apostles preaching to any Gentiles (other than Peter to the Centurion Cornelius). This was after God cut off Israel (as a nation), and commissioned Paul. And what must be pointed out is that Cornelius and members of his household were saved without being circumcised. Peter and “those of the circumcision were astonished” (Acts 10:45-46). Peter would later learn that God had begun accepting Gentiles by grace through faith alone (new Dispensation).
“Now they [Jews] which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but the Jews only” (Acts 11:19). Christians must realize that Jesus’ return to Israel to establish their kingdom was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Christ. Israel rejected their risen Christ. Israel, as a nation, was cut off and as a consequence, their Great Commission was put on hold.
For a Protestant, 2 minutes is a little short for the entire service. A Roman Catholic baptism almost certainly takes longer, and an Orthodox baptism takes about an hour.Baptism Disputes Have Fractured the Body of Christ
Let’s think about the doctrine of baptism that has brought division to millions of believers—splitting churches, preventing fellowship, over a ritual that takes about two minutes of a believer’s Christian life time.
Paul did no such thing, and this whole line of argument is rather inane. Should we drop any doctrine or practice that causes division?Millions have lost the opportunity for unity, fellowship, and working together for the advancement of God’s goals because of symbolic ritual. Is there a greater disgrace upon the gospel of Christ?
Baptismal disagreements have divided the worship and ministry of more believers that any other doctrinal debate: Do we baptize infants or adults? In water or in the Spirit? Sprinkled or submerged? By what formula: Do we baptize in the name of Jesus only? Or in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Does your baptism transfer with your membership if you move and go to another church? Someone even posed the question if the water is not deep enough for a full dunking, is the baptism valid?
Would Paul have tolerated this kind of division over baptism? He was disgusted by it. He would point out that to stop the division and in-fighting, he had stopped baptizing altogether. “God did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel.”
To gain a little perspective on how Jewish and Christian baptism differed, check out Everett Ferguson's Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries, particularly the first 11 chapters (covering material up through the New Testament).
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August 16th 2012, 10:53 PM #615
Re: Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?
Yeah. I don't buy the idea that Paul only baptized people initially, then decided it was wrong/unnecessary and stopped.
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