Is Baptism a Requirement for Salvation?

[Bill the Cat]

It is quite simple. You cannot use the thief on the cross as an argument for or against baptism because baptism in the
name of the father, son and holy spirit was not instituted until after Jesus rose from the dead. Obviously, the thief could
not be expected or required to do something that had not yet been commanded.

That is all I am saying, it is just logical. I am not tossing aside anything, it is simply not a logical argument. Now if you
wanted to bring Cornelius and his family into the discussion, that makes sense, for baptism had been instituted by that
time. I understand (but don't agree with) the argument that he was saved prior to his being baptized in water.

The coming of the Spirit DOES have something to do with salvation. The thief on the cross did not receive the gift of the
Holy Spirit, so based on YOUR logic, a person be saved apart from receiving the Spirit.

Was ANYONE saved prior to Pentecost?

[arrow1]

Was ANYONE saved prior to Pentecost?

The question is, was anyone saved by receiving the holy spirit prior to Pentecost. For example, people on your side of the
fence try to say Cornelius, through his receiving the Holy Spirit, that was proof that he was saved at that moment. Can you
provide evidence of someone receiving the Holy Spirit in the OT as proof that they were saved??

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ"

So who in the OT had the Spirit of Christ??

[Pilgrim]

Adam and Eve, being created in the image of God had the indwelling of the Spirit. The word for "image" is the same as for "idol" and in the ANE an idol was said to be the dwelling place of the diety's spirit. So in Genesis the implication is that the Spirit of God was in some sense to be found in God's new creation. And the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. Before you reply to this, carefully check your theology of the trinity out and make sure it's not heretical. It seems, as I think of it, that your understanding of the way the Trinity functions might be suspect anyway given the way you posed the previous question.

[Bill the Cat]

The question is, was anyone saved by receiving the holy spirit prior to Pentecost.

No it isn't. The question is "was anyone saved prior to Pentecost"

For example, people on your side of the fence try to say Cornelius, through his receiving the Holy Spirit, that was proof that he was saved at that moment. Can you provide evidence of someone receiving the Holy Spirit in the OT as proof that they were saved??

Irrelivant. Can you prove that the requirements for salvation became more difficult after the Resurrection? And can you prove that God changes His rules?

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ"

So who in the OT had the Spirit of Christ??

Are you admitting that they could have been saved without the Spirit of Christ? That without the Holy Spirit, the OT saints could be heirs of righteousness?

Scripture Verse:

Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

That the Spirit of adoption that we must have was unnecessary in the OT?

Scripture Verse:

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

[One Bad Pig]

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this thread.

Interesting that you think this way since it is the Bible that states it has changed to spiritual Baptism.

Where does it state that?

Can you imagine PAul standing at acts 2:38 and saying "I thank God that I baptized NONE OF YOU"..??? He would have been lynched...

Why would I want to imagine that? Anyhow, let's take a look at the context of your quote of Paul:

1 Cor 1:10-17 NKJV

¹⁰ Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. ¹¹ For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. ¹² Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” ¹³ Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
¹⁴ I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, ¹⁵ lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. ¹⁶ Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. ¹⁷ For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

It is clear that Paul DID baptize Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas. It is also a reasonable inference from verse 13 that those who were being written to had been baptized - just not in the name of Paul or by him.

What about Acts 16:30,31 which replaced the statement of Acts 2?

Replace?! Why are you applying Quranic principles of interpretation to the New Testament? Furthermore, the jailer and his household were baptized (Acts 16:33).

What of Romans "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe He was raised from the dead YOU WILL BE SAVED"??? No water here either...

Rom 6:1-11[verse

¹ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? ² Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? ³ Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ⁴ Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
⁵ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, ⁶ knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. ⁷ For he who has died has been freed from sin. ⁸ Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, ⁹ knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. ¹⁰ For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. ¹¹ Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul links baptism - in imagery analogous to immersion - to death to sin and life in Christ. Can we be saved without life in Christ?

hmmm.. Now I challenge you to go to the old testament and find ANYONE saved with water??? THe only ones required of the "diverse washings (which was sprinkling not immersion) were the priests preparing to begin their priesthood.

Baptism is not an Old Testament command.

What of Ephesian 4? One God, one Faith ONE BAPTISM??? DO you believe this to be water?

Yes. There is no reason to think it is not. The passage gives no indication whatsoever that the word should not be interpreted literally.

Then the spirit baptism of 1 Corinthian 12:13 is nothing? Lord I pray for you now that He take the blinders off your heart to see His truth...

The baptism of 1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism, in which the Holy Spirit participates.

What of Acts 1 which states from Jesus "Surely John DID baptize with water BUT (notice the change here out with the old to something new up and coming) you will be baptized with the holy spirit...." Does this remind you of 1 Cor. 12:13?

No, it reminds me of Acts 2:1-4, after which people were baptized with water in many different accounts.

So friend if this is holy spirit baptism... and there is ONLY ONE baptism today.... which is it. did you get wet or did you get washed by the holy spirit of God?

That's not "holy spirit baptism" - that's Pentecost. I got washed by the Holy Spirit of God by getting wet.

So then friend.. do you see that it is NOT something NEW... IT WAS SPOKEN BY JESUS AND PAUL whom Jesus gave to us for the changes in instruction. ??? NOT new.. the oldest teaching there is on the subject.... and that from God.

Paul did not change any instructions given by Jesus, and would be horrified that you think he did. One of the last instructions Jesus gave is Matthew 28:19. Ignore it at your own peril.

Now, as I've said in this thread before, the thread title is not a proper question in the first place. The proper question is, "Since Jesus commanded His disciples to be baptized, why would you refuse to obey?"

[Neko]

I used to be a believer in baptism as necessary for salvation. My question is, why does Peter make baptism required for recieving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38, baptism is a prerequisite for receiving the Holy Spirit?

[3abdulmesii7]

I suppose that it is not enough to say that according to the constant Tradition of the Church Catholic, Baptism _is_ a requirement for salvation?

[Bill the Cat]

I suppose that it is not enough to say that according to the constant Tradition of the Church Catholic, Baptism _is_ a requirement for salvation?

And I'd ask the same question of you and them... when were those in the OT baptized?

[3abdulmesii7]

Their circumcision was a type of their baptism.

[Bill the Cat]

Their circumcision was a type of their baptism.

And women were not circumcised, yet Rahab is said to have been justified in Hebrews.

It's like this... Oxygen is required to have water. If you could make water without oxygen, then it would no longer be required. Since those in the OT were not baptized, yet they were saved, it can not be required. It's a logical impossibility

If NotB=S then B=/= S

[3abdulmesii7]

Okay, fine.

Post-Jesus, baptism is a requirement for salvation. 1 Peter 3:2

Pretty much every Christian until quite recently held that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Apparently they were all without the Holy Spirit.

[3abdulmesii7]

*1 Peter 3:21

[3abdulmesii7]

Couldn't Rahab have been saved by her husband's circumcision? 1 Corinthians 7:14

[3abdulmesii7]

Everyone, prior to Pentecost, went to the Bosom of Abraham, where they waited for Christ.

I don't know whether that counts as a Yes or a No.

[Bill the Cat]

Couldn't Rahab have been saved by her husband's circumcision? 1 Corinthians 7:14

No. Rahab was not Jewish.