Looks Like John Tors Isn't Happy

[tabibito]

way to OVER literalize things. There is plain reading and then there is semantic nitpicking.

I would say a gas cloud condensing would be "formless" and "void"

This "over literalising" that you complain of has a result - no conflict between the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 accounts of creation.
I don't think the compositor(s) of Genesis would have failed to notice a discrepancy if one had existed.
At a pinch, a condensing gas cloud might be said to be without form, but it by no means void.

[Darth Executor]

This "over literalising" that you complain of has a result - no conflict between the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 accounts of creation.
I don't think the compositor(s) of Genesis would have failed to notice a discrepancy if one had existed.
At a pinch, a condensing gas cloud might be said to be without form, but it by no means void.

void just means empty and could refer to the fact that there was nothing on it (IE: no trees, oceans, animals, etc.).

[tabibito]

void just means empty and could refer to the fact that there was nothing on it (IE: no trees, oceans, animals, etc.).

By itself, and at a pinch, one of the terms would leave that possibility open - "without form" ... had existence, maybe. "void" ... had existence, maybe. "without form and void" ... it would be wholly unreasonable to assume that the two terms, reinforcing each other as they do, could mean the Earth had physical existence.

[Sparko]

By itself, and at a pinch, one of the terms would leave that possibility open - "without form" ... had existence, maybe. "void" ... had existence, maybe. "without form and void" ... it would be wholly unreasonable to assume that the two terms, reinforcing each other as they do, could mean the Earth had physical existence.

So you think the bible is saying the earth had no existence in that verse? It clearly existed because it says THE EARTH was without... - it was describing the earth. If it did not exist, why describe it? it went on to say it had waters and darkness. How could that be if it had no existence?

"darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

In fact the NIV translates Gen 1:1 as:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

[tabibito]

I said it had no physical existence. The statement that the Earth is without form and void (on the face of it) makes no sense, so explanations are devised to force it into making sense: but,
the statements of the chapters don't conflict until the wholly unnecessary attempt is made to force chapter 1 into intelligibility.


An architect finishes the creation of a house some time before it begins to exist.

[Apologiaphoenix]

I think you'd say sometime before the home begins to exist. Walton says that the account is about turning the house of Earth into a home where the deity will dwell.

[tabibito]

Which part of a house exists before the architect hands the plans to the builders? Of course, no analogy will hold true at all points - so there is a difference at the point where the raw materials for the house actually exist.