Innerancy.

[Same Hakeem]

This is about the worst "contradiction" I've ever seen. You really need to up your game, Hakeem.

Indeed, it is the worst contradition I have seen where the Catholic Bible has 73 books while the Protestant 66 books. To make this contradition worse, the Greek Orthodox Bible 79 books. And all Bibles above claim to be inspired by God.

The fact is that all cannot be inspired by God if you have the originals of the above Bibles.

[One Bad Pig]

Indeed, it is the worst contradition I have seen where the Catholic Bible has 73 books while the Protestant 66 books. To make this contradition worse, the Greek Orthodox Bible 79 books. And all Bibles above claim to be inspired by God.

The fact is that all cannot be inspired by God if you have the originals of the above Bibles.

Hakeem, the Bible was not written as a unit. The books were written individually over a timespan of 1500 years or so, and not assembled as a unit for three centuries or so after the last one was written. You're making fundy atheists look competent by comparison, here.

[Cerebrum123]

Hakeem, the Bible was not written as a unit. The books were written individually over a timespan of 1500 years or so, and not assembled as a unit for three centuries or so after the last one was written. You're making fundy atheists look competent by comparison, here.

In my experience this is rather common with Muslims.

[Sparko]

In my experience this is rather common with Muslims.

If they had any sense or discernment they wouldn't be muslim.

[Same Hakeem]

Hakeem, the Bible was not written as a unit. The books were written individually over a timespan of 1500 years or so, and not assembled as a unit for three centuries or so after the last one was written. You're making fundy atheists look competent by comparison, here.

Thanks for the info. But the fact remains that all of these Bibles (Protestant 66 books, Catholic 73 books & Greek Orthodox 79 books) cannot be inspired by God.

[Cerebrum123]

Thanks for the info. But the fact remains that all of these Bibles (Protestant 66 books, Catholic 73 books & Greek Orthodox 79 books) cannot be inspired by God.

No that's not a fact. It's an assertion from your illogical mind.

[Same Hakeem]

No that's not a fact. It's an assertion from your illogical mind.

You may do this small task. And in case you do not do it, please check the following facts;

It is a fact that there are 73 books in the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Bible includes the following books that are not in the 66 books Protestant Bible:

1. Tobit,

2. Judith,

3-4. 1 & 2 Maccabees,

5. Ecclesiasticus,

6. Wisdom of Solomon, and

7. Baruch.

[KingsGambit]

What if a new sect of Muslims came around and decided that they would only recognize half of the Quran? Using your logic, this would mean the Quran is not inspired because there would be a disagreement on what constituted scripture.

[Same Hakeem]

What if a new sect of Muslims came around and decided that they would only recognize half of the Quran? Using your logic, this would mean the Quran is not inspired because there would be a disagreement on what constituted scripture.

I will not discuss Quran or any related matter to it here.

All these Bibles (i.e. Protestant 66 books, Catholic 73 books and Greek Orthodox 79 books) cannot be inspired fully by God even if we have the originals of each of these above referred Bibles.

[rogue06]

I will not discuss Quran or any related matter to it here.

Because doing so would expose that by the criteria that you are trying to establish the qur'an is not inspired by God.

Hypocrite.

[Cerebrum123]

What if a new sect of Muslims came around and decided that they would only recognize half of the Quran? Using your logic, this would mean the Quran is not inspired because there would be a disagreement on what constituted scripture.

Already happened in the past. Only after Uthman was there a unified codex, and he burnt all variants he could find. Here are just a few examples of not only Muslims accepting varying Qurans, but early Muslims saying that various parts of the Quran have been lost.

Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104—“O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man”—meaning Zaid bin Thabit—and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005—Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”

Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .

“Let none of you say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Koran,’ for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, ‘I have learned what is extant thereof’” (Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an)

Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an—A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”

[rogue06]

Already happened in the past. Only after Uthman was there a unified codex, and he burnt all variants he could find. Here are just a few examples of not only Muslims accepting varying Qurans, but early Muslims saying that various parts of the Quran have been lost.

Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104—“O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man”—meaning Zaid bin Thabit—and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005—Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”

Sahih Muslim 2286—Abu Musa al-Ash’ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur’an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara’at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it . . .

“Let none of you say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Koran,’ for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, ‘I have learned what is extant thereof’” (Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an)

Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an—A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”

I'll add to this something I posted a few years ago:

Coins with Quranic writings on them dating from 685 AD (minted during the reign of Abd al-Malik), as well as inscriptions within the Dome of the Rock sanctuary (built in Jerusalem in 691 AD by Abd al-Malik), strongly indicate that the Qur'an has been subject to textual revisions. The quotations on the coins and especially in the Dome of the Rock, differ in detail from that which is found in the Qur'an today.

Moreover, the evidence shows that a considerable portion of the Qur'an was lost and much of what is left has been substantially altered. The testimonies of Muhammad’s trusted friends and family (among them Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ubay ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib) attest to this fact.

Abdullah ibn Umar, a.k.a. ‘Ibn Umar al-Khattab, explicitly states that a large part of the Qur'an was missing: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of what is available.’”

A’isha, Muhammad’s last wife and some times referred to as the "Mother of the Believers," corroborated this adding: “During the time of the prophet, the chapter or sura of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Koran, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).

The same statement was made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the greatest of Muhammad's companions and highly regarded in the early Muslim community, as recorded in the Al-Itqān fi ‘Ulum Al-Qur’an (Itqan for brevity's sake), by Suyuti: “This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the sura of the parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, “It used to be almost equal to the csura the cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.’”^[1]

’Ali Ibn Abi Talib the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims and Muhammad's cousin and later the son-in-law, also confirmed that dozens of verses from the “Chapter of the Parties” were lost.

This same story and same dialogue is also recorded by Abū Muḥammad ʿAlī ibn Aḥmad ibn Saʿīd ibn Ḥazm (or just Ibn Hazm) in volume 8 of his Al-Muhalla (a.k.a. "The Sweetened" or "The Adorned Treatise"), to which he added the following note: “’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this was a reliable chain of authority and the Zamakh-sharif also cited it in his book al-Kash-Shaf.

The Itqan by Suyuti also relates in its first part that other portions of the Qur'an were lost stating “Malik says that several verses of Sura 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is ‘In the name of God, the passionate, the merciful’ because it was proven that the length of the Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow.” This means that this chapter has lost approximately 157 verses!

The Itqan also states, as have other scholars, that that the copy of the Qur'an owned by Ubay and another of Muhammad's companions, Abdulla Ibn Mas’ud, included two suras called “The Hafad” and “The Khal” -- both of which are located after the sura of “The ’Asr.” Also, the Quranic copy of Ibn Mas’ud does not contain the suras of “The Hamd” and “The Mu’withatan” (Sura 113, 114).

So what exactly happened to some of the missing parts? Would you believe the “my dog ate it,” or a similar schoolboy excuse has been presented? In volume 8 of the Al-Muhalla Ibn Hazm clearly states: “The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Quranic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it.” Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book Al-Kashshaaf by Al-Zamakhshari, confirms this claiming that the tradition came directly from both Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha. This same incident is mentioned by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al-Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, who heard it from Abdulla who had himself heard it from A’isha. So I guess, “my goat ate it” would probably be more correct.















1. The same source also notes that, “During the collection of the Kora, people used to come to Zayd ibn Thabit (with verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witness attested to it. The last verse of the chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it.” Umar would later say “If it were not that the people would say ‘Umar has added to the book of God,’ I would have recorded the verse of the stoning.”

[KingsGambit]

I
All these Bibles (i.e. Protestant 66 books, Catholic 73 books and Greek Orthodox 79 books) cannot be inspired fully by God even if we have the originals of each of these above referred Bibles.

Yes they can. You've provided no logical reason for that to be the case.

[Sparko]

You may do this small task. And in case you do not do it, please check the following facts;

It is a fact that there are 73 books in the Catholic Bible. The Catholic Bible includes the following books that are not in the 66 books Protestant Bible:

1. Tobit,

2. Judith,

3-4. 1 & 2 Maccabees,

5. Ecclesiasticus,

6. Wisdom of Solomon, and

7. Baruch.

Hakeem,

Since there are different versions of the Quran, does that mean it was not inspired?

There are at least 7 different variants.

---(C)ertain variant readings (of the Qur'an) existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks. ... The authoritative "readers" are:

Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
al-Qisa'i (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)
(Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 324, bold added)
https://answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

[rogue06]

Hakeem,

Since there are different versions of the Quran, does that mean it was not inspired?

There are at least 7 different variants.

---(C)ertain variant readings (of the Qur'an) existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks. ... The authoritative "readers" are:

Nafi` (from Medina; d. 169/785)
Ibn Kathir (from Mecca; d. 119/737)
Abu `Amr al-`Ala' (from Damascus; d. 153/770)
Ibn `Amir (from Basra; d. 118/736)
Hamzah (from Kufah; d. 156/772)
al-Qisa'i (from Kufah; d. 189/804)
Abu Bakr `Asim (from Kufah; d. 158/778)
(Cyril Glassé, The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 324, bold added)
https://answering-islam.org/Green/seven.htm

He refuses to discuss the implications that his position has on Islam

I will not discuss Quran or any related matter to it here.

Because doing so would expose that by the criteria that you are trying to establish the qur'an is not inspired by God.

Hypocrite.