Originally posted by Starlight
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Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.
We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.
General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNope. It is simply a matter of certain parties misrepresenting what their cherry picked (I think that's the term) citations, Paul's included, are about. Once again you have adequately addressed the issue.
Starlight is confused about the concept of righteousness, and what Paul means by that in the context of Romans. FF Bruce untangles this a bit in his commentary on Romans,
And in his introduction, Bruce breaks down Paul's general message in Romans,
Getting directly into the Romans passage itself, let's take a look at what it says, and those passages it quotes,
The first quote comes either from Psalm 14 or Psalm 53.
Nothing there about the righteous.
Romans 3:13 is a combination of Psalm 5 and 140,
These passages come closer to making a distinction between the wicked and the righteous, but they're not contradicting Psalm 14 and Psalm 53, rather the Psalmist is pleading to God to lead him into righteousness, and he predicts that those who are led into righteousness will be brought into God's presence, as they certainly will, and as Paul himself declares.
Romans 3:14 quotes Psalm 10 which refers to the wicked and those they oppress, but, again, does not contradict Psalm 14 or 53.
Romans 3:15-17 is quoting Isaiah 59
Again, none of this contradicts Paul's point, rather it agrees with the general sentiment expressed in Romans 3.
Finally, Romans 3:18 comes from Psalm 36 which discusses the rebelliousness of evil men, and a plea to God to vindicate his faithful followers, but, again, this doesn't take away from the main talking points of Psalm 14 and 53, nor does it contradict Paul's message in Romans 3.
Again, F.F. Bruce putting these passages into context,
NT scholar Ben Witherington III makes an interesting point about Romans 3 in "Paul's Letter to the Romans: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary",
Oh, as an interesting side note, concerning Augustine's misreading of Romans 5:12, a number of scholars have made the point we can still reach the same conclusion about original sin with the correct translation. This blog post mentions a number of approaches to the subject.Last edited by Adrift; 04-12-2017, 11:17 AM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostTrue enough - but if we are to believe the accounts, the offspring were produced according to whether the procedure had been followed or not. Given that the procedure could not have produced such a result, there arises the need to account for the results. You have quite thoroughly eliminated any possibility that a "natural" explanation is viable.
So, it really has nothing to do with Jacob's actions, as much as with God's intervention. As demonstrated in so many other examples in the OT (and a number of places in the NT), God requires an individual to perform some sort of act of faith preceding his divine intervention.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI'm having a hard time finding in these passages where all of them "claim specific people or groups are righteous", and that's not really the point of the quotes anyways. Paul is not saying that no one was ever called righteous in the Old Testament. Surely he knows that some were called that, but he's making the point that Jews are no different than Gentiles in that they all sin, and come short of the glory of God, even those who abide by the Law.
NT scholar Ben Witherington III makes an interesting point about Romans 3 in "Paul's Letter to the Romans: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary",
Oh, as an interesting side note, concerning Augustine's misreading of Romans 5:12, a number of scholars have made the point we can still reach the same conclusion about original sin with the correct translation. This blog post mentions a number of approaches to the subject.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostPart of that difficulty might be explained by this kind of thing: "The men replied, “Cornelius, a centurion and an upright (δικαιος = righteous) and God-fearing man ...” but Lot is declared to have been righteous (2 Peter 2:8), Noah (Gen 7:1) In 2 Sam 22:21 David declares himself to be righteous, and Solomon affirms that David was righteous (1 Kings 3:6) 1 Kings 8:32 acknowledges that righteous people can exist, as do Amos 2:6 and Habakkuk 1:4.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostOriginal Sin (as in the idea that all men are deemed sinners because they inherited sin from Adam) is by no means supported by a correct reading of Romans. A full and thorough examination, point by point, shows that death comes to all men because, not Adam, but all men sinned: themselves, personally. The matter is given full exposition in Ezekiel 18, with verse 20 stating what is reiterated throughout the chapter "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.". Jeremiah also makes the same statement.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostYour challenge appears to be "find a passage that I can't make up fake and creative explanations about to show that it's 'really' when 'properly understood' Totally Not False Like It Looks". Since you can, of course, make up fake and creative explanations about any passage, what's the point?
After a quick google for lists of errors and browsing the results, I think this list of errors is one of the better ones that shows some simple contradictions. It's far from complete of course, but shows some of the more obvious and simple contradictions. A lot of them result from the fact that Chronicles vs Samuel/Kings cover the same historical timeline but give different accounts.
A few of my own personal favorite errors / problems (not mentioned in the linked list above) are:
1. The story of Jacob's breeding of speckled cattle through having the cattle breed in speckled shade (Gen 30). From a modern scientific perspective this beautifully depicts the common historical Lamarckian ideas of evolution, and how things were often understood prior to modern discoveries of genetics and DNA. Breed cattle in front of speckled shade, get speckled cattle, what could be more obvious... except that of course we now know that's not how it works.
2. The story of Saul/David/Jonathan in Samuel and Kings is interesting because the writer has pasted together awkwardly about 3 different historical accounts of the events and not properly edited them to flow. So the accounts contradict on issues like: when Saul and David first meet, and how; On when Goliath was killed and in which battle; etc.
3. "No one is righteous, not even one". This is an interesting theological conundrum. Paul cites in Romans 3 a series of 6 OT quotes purporting to show that "no one" is righteous. However if you look up the OT references for those you find in all 6 passages that the original author is not in fact claiming that nobody in the world is righteous and all 6 passages actually claim specific people or groups are righteous. Also, numerous other passages in the bible state that certain people or groups are righteous... e.g. "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation" etc.
Item 2. You yourself suggested known textual issues. We would need to look at a specific.
Item 3. Can be addressed by citing other scriptures. It being a matter of disagreement over interpretations. All humans being sinners before a holy God. And God counting some as righteous. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." -- Ecclesiastes 7:20. ". . . And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. . . ." -- Genesis 15:6. ". . . And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. . . ." -- Mark 10:18.
We can discuss one of those or another further if you so choose.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by jpholding View PostBen Witherington
vs
a site called "Bible Babble""I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell I actually don't think this is a contradiction so much as I think it's an instance of modern evangelical theology being severely wrong in its reading of Paul. I don't think Paul is trying to teach that God's required standards of righteousness cannot be met by humans, I think that's a severe misreading of Paul, that Paul would have objected to vehemently, and which places Paul into contradiction with the context of his own proof-texts and with many other biblical passages.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by AdriftThis reply of yours doesn't appear to me to be interacting with the post you're replying to. I know it was long, but did you read all of it? Again, Paul certainly knows that some have been called righteous in the Old Testament, he himself acknowledges that Abraham was righteous in the very next chapter. So what does Paul mean when he quotes the scripture that none are righteous? Well again, he's making the point that none are righteous by their own works. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Righteousness must be accounted to people by God when they put their faith in Him. And more to the point, the Jews are no different than the Gentiles in this regard.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostOn this one I have to disagree: Paul was indeed saying "that God's required standards of righteousness cannot be met by humans" who remain in the flesh. He does not say, however, that those standards are unattainable to those who are in the Spirit, and he does deny that a person who is faithful to God is still in the flesh. "You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you.""I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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The fact remains that the Bible has error in light of the contradiction between 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 (KJV, ESV, RSV). 2 Kings 8:26 says "Ahaziah was 22 when he began to rule"; however, 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Ahaziah was 42 when he began to rule." For sure, 22 and 42 are not same.
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Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View PostMost scholars are quite certain this is a copyist error which does not affect Inerrancy.
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