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  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Does it have 66 books or more?
    Yes

    Comment


    • The facts remains that (1) protestant, catholics and greek orthodox christians have different number of books in their bibles. The protestant bible have 66 books, the catholic binle have 73 books and greek orthodox have 79 books, and (2) each of these christian either claims these extra books are inspired by God or not inspired.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
        Same here is your answer from Christian scholar, Sam Sam Shamoun:

        The 7 books which are included in the Catholic Bible are called the Jewish Apocrypha, literature compiled after the last O.T. book Malachi. These books are not inspired nor are they part of the Hebrew Bible. The Protestants reject these books for the following reasons:

        1. They were never recognized by the Jews as being part of the canon of scripture since they were not written by inspired men of God. The Talmud states:

        Our Rabbis taught: Since the death of the last prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit [of prophetic inspiration] departed from Israel. (Sanhedrin 11a)

        This clearly demonstrates that the Jews viewed all the literature written after Malachi as being uninspired. It also affirms that the New Testament picks up where the Old leaves off, since the authors affirmed inspiration for their writings. (Cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 5:18- Luke 10:7; 2 Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16; Rev. 1:1-3)

        In fact, certain books of the Apocrypha flat out deny inspiration. (Cf. 1 Maccabees 9:27) This fact alone is enough to convince someone of the uninspired status of these writings.

        2. At the Council of Jamnia, A.D. 90, Rabbis headed by Yohannan ben Zakkai acknowledged the 39 books which comprise the present Hebrew and Protestant OT canon as the official Word of God. Everything else was discarded. It should be pointed that this Council did not make the books canonical, but arrived at the conclusion that only these particular books were received throughout the generations as being that which God inspired.

        3. The Lord Jesus personally affirms the Protestant OT canon. During the time of Christ, the Old Testament was classified into three sections: "The Law," containing the five books of Moses. "The Prophets" which included two subdivisions. The first called "the Former Prophets" and included the books of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings. The second is called "the Latter Prophets" which included the books beginning with Isaiah to Ezekiel with the exception of Lamentations; and from Hosea to Malachi. These books were also subsumed into smaller lists such as combining the books from Hosea to Malachi together into one scroll called "the minor Prophets."

        The third is "the Writings" or "Psalms." This section consisted first of Psalms, Proverbs and Job; then the "Scrolls" of Song of Songs, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther and finally Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. This gives us a total of 39 OT books, the precise canon of books alluded to by Christ:

        "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44 KJV

        Jesus affirms the OT division of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms/Writings as being those books which prophesied his coming. No mention of the Apocrypha at all.

        4. The 7 books were not officially declared to be part of the Catholic OT canon until the Council of Trent, A.D. 1546. This was primarily in response to the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and their attacks on doctrines such as indulgences. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees 12:46 (Douay), praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins is commended. Hence, it is not hard to imagine why Catholics would want to include such a book since it supports their doctrine of praying for souls caught in purgatory, something rejected by the Reformers.

        Yet, amazingly, a book which was not included as part of the canon, despite the fact that it also formed part of the Apocrypha literature, is 2 Esdras (4 Esdra by Roman Catholics). This book rejects prayers for the dead. (Cf. 2 Esdra 7:105) The acceptance of 2 Maccabees and the rejection of 2 Esdras affirms the total arbitrariness of the decision behind the choosing of books which supported Catholic doctrine, while rejecting those that did not.

        5. The Quran acknowledges the canon of the Bible which existed at the time of Muhammad as being the Word of God. (Cf. S. 2:113; 3:79; 10:94) The canon which was in existence at that time were the 39 books of the OT and the 27 N.T. books. These are the books that form the present day canon of the Protestant Bible.

        As was indicated, the canon of the OT had been finalized in the latter half of the first century. Whereas the New Testament canon was officially decided upon in the fourth century at the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

        Hence, any books which were added to the Bible after these Councils cannot be accepted as the Word of God. God has given the Church the 66 books of the Protestant Bible to form his infallible rule of Christian faith. This is a fact which the Quran affirms.
        Did the Churches known to Mohammed have the Protestant 66-book canon ? I don’t think so. The CC can be left out of the reckoning, as Mo displays no knowledge of Latin Christianity - which leaves Byzantine, Syriac & possibly Coptic & Nestorian Christianity. Shamoun’s tilting at the canon of another Church spoils his article, & adds nothing to it. There is a place for Evangelicals to argue against the canon of a different Church; this article is not it.
        Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-23-2019, 07:17 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
          Same Hakeem is not interested in a meaningful conversation.
          You are not right. I quote the same Bible you quote from. I say there are theological contradictions. For example, John 1:18 says "No one has EVER seen God" but Job said to God "my eyes have seen you" in Job 42:5.

          Comment


          • Wow, is this riddled with error.
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            Same here is your answer from Christian scholar, Sam Sam Shamoun:

            The 7 books which are included in the Catholic Bible are called the Jewish Apocrypha, literature compiled after the last O.T. book Malachi.
            The last OT book was 1/2 Chronicles.
            These books are not inspired nor are they part of the Hebrew Bible. The Protestants reject these books for the following reasons:

            1. They were never recognized by the Jews as being part of the canon of scripture since they were not written by inspired men of God. The Talmud states:

            Our Rabbis taught: Since the death of the last prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit [of prophetic inspiration] departed from Israel. (Sanhedrin 11a)

            This clearly demonstrates that the Jews viewed all the literature written after Malachi as being uninspired. It also affirms that the New Testament picks up where the Old leaves off, since the authors affirmed inspiration for their writings. (Cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 5:18- Luke 10:7; 2 Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16; Rev. 1:1-3)
            Which Talmud - Babylonian or Jerusalem/Palestinian? What is the context of the statement? Regardless, it affirms no such thing about the New Testament.
            In fact, certain books of the Apocrypha flat out deny inspiration. (Cf. 1 Maccabees 9:27) This fact alone is enough to convince someone of the uninspired status of these writings.
            It does no such thing:
            Source: 1 Mac. 9:27 NRSV

            27 So there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Didn't know that, e.g., Solomon was a prophet.
            2. At the Council of Jamnia, A.D. 90, Rabbis headed by Yohannan ben Zakkai acknowledged the 39 books which comprise the present Hebrew and Protestant OT canon as the official Word of God. Everything else was discarded. It should be pointed that this Council did not make the books canonical, but arrived at the conclusion that only these particular books were received throughout the generations as being that which God inspired.
            The assembly at Jamnia did not, as is rightly stated, make the books canonical. The rest of the statement regarding the "council" is bunkum:
            Source: Blue Letter Bible

            The passage in the Mishnah merely indicates that the status of two books, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon, were under discussion by the religious authorities. The debate was not about the writings in general or which books belonged, or did not belong, in the canon of Scripture.

            © Copyright Original Source


            source
            3. The Lord Jesus personally affirms the Protestant OT canon. During the time of Christ, the Old Testament was classified into three sections: "The Law," containing the five books of Moses. "The Prophets" which included two subdivisions. The first called "the Former Prophets" and included the books of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings. The second is called "the Latter Prophets" which included the books beginning with Isaiah to Ezekiel with the exception of Lamentations; and from Hosea to Malachi. These books were also subsumed into smaller lists such as combining the books from Hosea to Malachi together into one scroll called "the minor Prophets."

            The third is "the Writings" or "Psalms." This section consisted first of Psalms, Proverbs and Job; then the "Scrolls" of Song of Songs, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther and finally Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. This gives us a total of 39 OT books, the precise canon of books alluded to by Christ:

            "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44 KJV

            Jesus affirms the OT division of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms/Writings as being those books which prophesied his coming. No mention of the Apocrypha at all.
            This begs the question that the deuterocanonical books could not be placed in one of the three categories; in fact, they would fit just fine under "Writings".
            4. The 7 books were not officially declared to be part of the Catholic OT canon until the Council of Trent, A.D. 1546. This was primarily in response to the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and their attacks on doctrines such as indulgences. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees 12:46 (Douay), praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins is commended. Hence, it is not hard to imagine why Catholics would want to include such a book since it supports their doctrine of praying for souls caught in purgatory, something rejected by the Reformers.

            Yet, amazingly, a book which was not included as part of the canon, despite the fact that it also formed part of the Apocrypha literature, is 2 Esdras (4 Esdra by Roman Catholics). This book rejects prayers for the dead. (Cf. 2 Esdra 7:105) The acceptance of 2 Maccabees and the rejection of 2 Esdras affirms the total arbitrariness of the decision behind the choosing of books which supported Catholic doctrine, while rejecting those that did not.
            Let's see:
            Source: 2 Esd. 7:105 NRSV

            ...so no one shall ever pray for another on that day, neither shall anyone lay a burden on another; for then all shall bear their own righteousness and unrighteousness.”

            © Copyright Original Source


            Context is rather important here: it's in reference to prayers for another on the Day of Judgment.
            5. The Quran acknowledges the canon of the Bible which existed at the time of Muhammad as being the Word of God. (Cf. S. 2:113; 3:79; 10:94) The canon which was in existence at that time were the 39 books of the OT and the 27 N.T. books. These are the books that form the present day canon of the Protestant Bible.
            Let's see:
            Source: 2:113

            The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

            © Copyright Original Source


            Source: 3:79

            It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."

            © Copyright Original Source


            Source: 10:94

            So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

            © Copyright Original Source



            Evidence points to the Quran supporting no such assertion.
            As was indicated, the canon of the OT had been finalized in the latter half of the first century. Whereas the New Testament canon was officially decided upon in the fourth century at the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).
            The NT canon was never officially decided upon; the referenced councils at Hippo and Carthage were local in nature and did not presume to speak for the entire church.
            Hence, any books which were added to the Bible after these Councils cannot be accepted as the Word of God. God has given the Church the 66 books of the Protestant Bible to form his infallible rule of Christian faith. This is a fact which the Quran affirms.
            Books now classified as Apocrypha by the West were quoted in the same manner as scripture for centuries before those councils (which even Shamoun concedes were not pertinent to the OT canon), and continued to be quoted similarly after them.

            You need to find a better "scholar".
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • Whether the Catholic books or Protestant books, contradictions still exist. As i wrote earlier, John 1:18 says "No one has EVER seen God. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father made him known" while Job says to God " my eyes have seen you" in Job 42:5.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                Whether the Catholic books or Protestant books, contradictions still exist. As i wrote earlier, John 1:18 says "No one has EVER seen God. The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father made him known" while Job says to God " my eyes have seen you" in Job 42:5.
                What you fail to hear is the Son is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible and omnipresent. God's finite and temporal agent is His Son. ". . . The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father made him known."

                "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his Son's name, if thou canst tell?" -- Proverbs 30:4.
                Last edited by 37818; 01-04-2020, 09:41 AM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  What you fail to hear is the Son is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible and omnipresent. God's finite and temporal agent is His Son. ". . . The only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father made him known."

                  "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his Son's name, if thou canst tell?" -- Proverbs 30:4.
                  John 1:18 says "no one has seen God AT ANYTIME" however, earlier Job said to God "my eyes have seen you"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                    John 1:18 says "no one has seen God AT ANYTIME" however, earlier Job said to God "my eyes have seen you"
                    No one has seen the Father. But they have seen Theophanies of God, which were the Son. Which shows the Son is God. Your own argument goes against you.

                    Comment


                    • Claiming " they have seen Theophanies of God" is not read anywhere in the Bible. The Bible reads in Job 42:5 that Job says to God "my eyes have seen YOU (not your theophany)"

                      Comment

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