Page 28 of 33 FirstFirst ... 182627282930 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 280 of 324

Thread: Innerancy.

  1. #271
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    306
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    I doubt you will get an answer to your question. He just spams and when his questions are answered he moves on to the next one. I don't think he understands what a monologue is to be honest.
    This question relates to Islam. I am here discussing if the Bible errs only.

  2. #272
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    306
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    You have already been addressed in the other forum. Why you feel the need to keep spamming and once we have answered your questions you continue to just move on to the next point is beyond me. Quit being an idiot and btw the way you still have failed to answer Sparkle's that you have been asked numerous times.
    I want to hear others views as well.

  3. #273
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,795
    Amen (Given)
    5133
    Amen (Received)
    3394
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    According to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:30, no descendant of Coniah will sit upon the throne of David and ruling in Judah. Jesus was a descendant of Coniah according to Matthew 1:11 and will sit upon the throne of David according to Luke 1:32. When Jesus sits upon the throne of David, the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:30 will become false.

    The above referred verses are as follows;

    "Thus says the Lord:
    ‘Write this man down as childless,
    A man who shall not prosper in his days;
    For none of his descendants shall prosper,
    Sitting on the throne of David,
    And ruling anymore in Judah.’ ” (Jeremiah 22:30)

    "Josiah begot [a]Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon. (Matthew 1:11)

    Footnotes:
    Matthew 1:11 Or Coniah or Jehoiachin"

    “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David " (Luke 1:32).

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...2&version=NKJV

    In NLT, the footnote of Jeremiah 22:24 states “Hebrew Coniah, a variant spelling of Jehoiachin; also in 22:28.”
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...24&version=NLT
    You can either

    1. Argue that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are both Joseph's and therefore Jesus couldn't have been a physical descendant of David since Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father,

    or

    2. Argue that the prophecy about the descendants of Jeconiah never sitting on the throne of David is falsified if Jesus sits upon the throne of David.


    You cannot argue both at the same time without contradicting yourself.

    -----

    But even if we ignore the way you blatantly contradict yourself, there are a few things we can note about the "prophecy". One is that it says that "a man who shall not prosper in his days", which seems to limit the "curse" to Jeconiah's own lifetime and the immediate future, and doesn't say anything about any descendants far off in the future after Jeconiah has died:

    Source: Craigie, P. C. (2002). Vol. 26: Word Biblical Commentary : Jeremiah 1-25.

    "The image in v 30 shifts to that of a scribe, whether a census taker (as Holladay suggests) or land register (as Carroll suggests) or a scribe tallying prisoners of war to be taken to Babylon. The official in charge says of Jehoiachin, “Write (register) this man, ‘Stripped’ (perhaps dishonored, disgraced) or ‘Childless.’” A register of those taken captive would logically include the head of the family followed by a listing of dependents. It might also include comments such as disgraced, banished (as LXX implies), or stripped (of power). Such is to remain the condition of Jehoiachin. The fact that children are apparently included in v 28, and sons are listed in 1 Chr 3:17–18, should not diminish the thrust of the oracle. The sense of “childless” or “stripped” is that Jehoiachin will have no descendant ruling upon the throne of David. The word tslach occurs twice in this verse. Often the word is translated with the sense of “prosper.” However, here a better sense seems to be that of “succeed.” No man will succeed during Jehoiachin’s days; indeed none will succeed. The implication might be that of prosperity: that no man would prosper during his days. But the full intent of that phrase is shown in the two parallel lines, “none sitting on the throne of David, nor ruling again in Judah.” Jehoiachin will have no descendant to advance or succeed to the throne."

    © Copyright Original Source



    The above citation was copied from the following article: http://christianthinktank.com/fabprof4.html

    And regardless of whether the curse was for the immediate future (so that Jeconiah wouldn't get to experience any of his descendants sitting on the throne), or for an indefinite period of time, Haggai 2:22-23 proves either that the curse was indeed only applicable to Jeconiah's immediate descendants, or that God rescinded the curse for some reason (and rabbinical tradition seems to teach that the curse was rescinded because Jeconiah repented in prison*) because it states:

    Scripture Verse: Haggai 2:22-23 ESV

    22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Which when we compare it with Jeremiah 22:24-25 shows something interesting:

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 22:24-25 ESV


    24 “As I live, declares the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on my right hand, yet I would tear you off 25 and give you into the hand of those who seek your life, into the hand of those of whom you are afraid, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In other words, Jeconiah was the signet ring that the Lord "tore off" from His hand and gave up to Nebuchadnezzar. But Zerubbabel, who was Jeconiah's grandson, was "reinstated" as God's signet ring, thus showing that the curse, for whatever reason, wasn't applicable any more, either because it was outside of the applicable time frame, or because it had been rescinded for some reason.







    *
    Source: Judaica Books of the Prophets, in loc

    "for no man of his seed shall prosper -In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta /'Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this : 'was because Jehoiachin repented in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person's sentence, as it is stated: inscribe this man childless.' But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, "I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet" (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: Inscribe this man childless," and after he was exiled, it IS written: '(I Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son--Redak"

    © Copyright Original Source



    Citation copied from the same article as the other citation above.

  4. Amen Adrift, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  5. #274
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Faith
    Muslim
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    306
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    You can either

    1. Argue that the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are both Joseph's and therefore Jesus couldn't have been a physical descendant of David since Joseph wasn't Jesus' biological father,

    or

    2. Argue that the prophecy about the descendants of Jeconiah never sitting on the throne of David is falsified if Jesus sits upon the throne of David.


    You cannot argue both at the same time without contradicting yourself.

    -----

    But even if we ignore the way you blatantly contradict yourself, there are a few things we can note about the "prophecy". One is that it says that "a man who shall not prosper in his days", which seems to limit the "curse" to Jeconiah's own lifetime and the immediate future, and doesn't say anything about any descendants far off in the future after Jeconiah has died:

    Source: Craigie, P. C. (2002). Vol. 26: Word Biblical Commentary : Jeremiah 1-25.

    "The image in v 30 shifts to that of a scribe, whether a census taker (as Holladay suggests) or land register (as Carroll suggests) or a scribe tallying prisoners of war to be taken to Babylon. The official in charge says of Jehoiachin, “Write (register) this man, ‘Stripped’ (perhaps dishonored, disgraced) or ‘Childless.’” A register of those taken captive would logically include the head of the family followed by a listing of dependents. It might also include comments such as disgraced, banished (as LXX implies), or stripped (of power). Such is to remain the condition of Jehoiachin. The fact that children are apparently included in v 28, and sons are listed in 1 Chr 3:17–18, should not diminish the thrust of the oracle. The sense of “childless” or “stripped” is that Jehoiachin will have no descendant ruling upon the throne of David. The word tslach occurs twice in this verse. Often the word is translated with the sense of “prosper.” However, here a better sense seems to be that of “succeed.” No man will succeed during Jehoiachin’s days; indeed none will succeed. The implication might be that of prosperity: that no man would prosper during his days. But the full intent of that phrase is shown in the two parallel lines, “none sitting on the throne of David, nor ruling again in Judah.” Jehoiachin will have no descendant to advance or succeed to the throne."

    © Copyright Original Source



    The above citation was copied from the following article: http://christianthinktank.com/fabprof4.html

    And regardless of whether the curse was for the immediate future (so that Jeconiah wouldn't get to experience any of his descendants sitting on the throne), or for an indefinite period of time, Haggai 2:22-23 proves either that the curse was indeed only applicable to Jeconiah's immediate descendants, or that God rescinded the curse for some reason (and rabbinical tradition seems to teach that the curse was rescinded because Jeconiah repented in prison*) because it states:

    Scripture Verse: Haggai 2:22-23 ESV

    22 and to overthrow the throne of kingdoms. I am about to destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations, and overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall go down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 On that day, declares the Lord of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, the son of Shealtiel, declares the Lord, and make you like a signet ring, for I have chosen you, declares the Lord of hosts.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Which when we compare it with Jeremiah 22:24-25 shows something interesting:

    Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 22:24-25 ESV


    24 “As I live, declares the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, were the signet ring on my right hand, yet I would tear you off 25 and give you into the hand of those who seek your life, into the hand of those of whom you are afraid, even into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and into the hand of the Chaldeans.

    © Copyright Original Source



    In other words, Jeconiah was the signet ring that the Lord "tore off" from His hand and gave up to Nebuchadnezzar. But Zerubbabel, who was Jeconiah's grandson, was "reinstated" as God's signet ring, thus showing that the curse, for whatever reason, wasn't applicable any more, either because it was outside of the applicable time frame, or because it had been rescinded for some reason.







    *
    Source: Judaica Books of the Prophets, in loc

    "for no man of his seed shall prosper -In this, too, no man of his seed shall prosper, namely that no one will occupy the throne of David nor rule in Judah. Although we find that Zerubbabel, his great grandson, did rule over Judah upon the return of the exiles, the Rabbis (Pesikta /'Rav Kahana p. 163a) state that this : 'was because Jehoiachin repented in prison. They state further: Repentance is great, for it nullifies a person's sentence, as it is stated: inscribe this man childless.' But since he repented, his sentence was revoked and turned to the good, and he said to him, "I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you a signet" (Haggai 2:23). They state further: Said Rabbi Johanan: Exile expiates all sins, as it is said: Inscribe this man childless," and after he was exiled, it IS written: '(I Chron. 3:17) And the sons of Jeconiah, Assir, Shealtiel his son--Redak"

    © Copyright Original Source



    Citation copied from the same article as the other citation above.
    Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.
    Last edited by Same Hakeem; 06-06-2019 at 06:19 PM.

  6. #275
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Reformed Baptist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    143
    Amen (Given)
    23
    Amen (Received)
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.
    Are you really this dense? Jesus is Joseph's son by adoption and given Moses and Esther were adopted in the Old Testament it is not unlikely he was adopted legally by Joseph while having Mary as his mother. And I know you will throw up Romans 1:3 which has also been addressed.

  7. Amen Cow Poke, Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  8. #276
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,795
    Amen (Given)
    5133
    Amen (Received)
    3394
    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Between 1 and 2, ff course. 1. Since both genealogies in Matthew and Luke trace Jesus back to David namely through Joseph according to Luke 3:23 and Matthew 1:16. Since Joseph was not biological father of Jesus, Jesus cannot be traced back to David in Matthew and Luke in light of the fact that Jesus was born without a father.
    Again, Jesus can be traced back to David via his mother, as which I showed in the other thread where I cited the passage from Numbers 27 about the daughters of Zelophehad.

  9. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  10. #277
    Department Head Apologiaphoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Corryton
    Faith
    Trinitarian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,096
    Amen (Given)
    295
    Amen (Received)
    2884
    You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.

  11. Amen ReformedApologist, Cow Poke, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  12. #278
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Reformed Baptist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    143
    Amen (Given)
    23
    Amen (Received)
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.
    It seems to me he has an agenda. After all he never answered the questions brought towards him.He wants a monologue with answers that fit his presuppositions. Is this a typical Muslim tactic?

  13. #279
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    The Republic of Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    51,047
    Amen (Given)
    10980
    Amen (Received)
    23683
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.
    bacon
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  14. #280
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Finland
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,795
    Amen (Given)
    5133
    Amen (Received)
    3394
    Quote Originally Posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
    You all are wasting your breath. Answer one contradiciton and Same says nothing and moves on to the next. You'll be here potentially forever and he'll never accept it.
    Nah, I think this is fine actually. Even if Same himself doesn't actually learn anything from this it's still a fact that I myself have refreshed my memory on these issues, and it will be easier for me to remember the information, or at the very least where to find it, the next time I find myself in a situation where it's pertinent. And that's not to mention any potential lurkers who might stumble upon this thread and learn something from the discussion.

  15. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •