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Thread: Innerancy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    So I see Hakeem has no other arguments, he just spams the same text over and over which many here have addressed.
    You saying "So I see Hakeem has no other arguments, he just spams the same text over and over which many here have addressed" makes me ask you this question how many books in your Bible? 66 books of the protestant bible or 73 books of the catholic bible? or more?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    You saying "So I see Hakeem has no other arguments, he just spams the same text over and over which many here have addressed" makes me ask you this question how many books in your Bible? 66 books of the protestant bible or 73 books of the catholic bible? or more?
    Don't forget the maps!

  3. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  4. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Don't forget the maps!
    Sparko, does your bible have 66 books of the protestant or 73 of the catholic or more?

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    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWall View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but Innerancy seems to mean that despite textual errors or illusory contradictions the bible both testaments are still the divinely inspired teachings of God. If that is the case innerancy makes sense. I want to be sure though.

    I corrected it.
    Someone should correct the spelling of the name of the thread 😀🙃😵🙃🇬🇧

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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    In Leviticus 20:9, God orders that "anyone who curses his father or his mother must be put to death"

    If human legal court does NOT order to kill a person for cursing his father, then surely the Bible errs here to say God ordered the killing a person for cursing his father.
    Why would that be an error ? The same law occurs in the Code of Hammurabi, and there is no reason why the Jewish Law has to be any more than that Babylonian legal text from the 18th century BC. God’s grace, of which Biblical inspiration is an instance, is not magic - it takes individuals, and peoples, as they are, and works with them as they are, whether they are humane, or not. Centuries after the Torah, the Romans still allowed the execution of children by their fathers.

    It cannot simply be assumed that if a law is ascribed to Divine inspiration, it will therefore be more humane than those of other cultures. It may be - or it may not. Our own culture, which likes to think well of itself, is hardly a model of humanity - as members of ISIS have not been slow to point out.

    And the Torah is more humane than some other ancient law-codes. To compare it with modern codes and laws, is to see it in distorted perspective - because modern humane laws owe a good deal to the influence of Christian and Jewish culture, which is itself influenced by the laws of the Torah. And in case someone mentions the Enlightenment, that owes a great deal to the Christian sources that much of the Enlightenment rejected. But that is BTW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    When the Bible in Hebrews 6:10 says "God is not unjust" but in contradiction God himself ordered to kill infants in 1 Samuel 15:3 and children in Ezk 9:6 and struck ALL the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus 12:29 when God commanded that "every person is to die for HIS OWN sin" in 2 Kings 14:6, this means either God practiced injustice or the Bible errs because there is no fairness in God killing innocents for the guilt of others. No human legal court would accept an innocent to die in the place of the criminal.
    The objection overlooks the emphasis - in the Bible and in the Ancient Near Eastern culture of which Israel was a part - on the solidarity between members of groups. The emphasis on the individual, which is taken for granted nowadays, was much weaker in that culture. The Bible contains both emphases, which makes sense, as it developed over a period of 1000+ years.

    One has also to consider what is meant by ascribing a course of action to a deity - whether the god of Israel, or any other. The Moabite Stone ascribes anger to the god Kemosh:

    Omri was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Kemosh was angry with his land. And his son reigned in his place; and he also said, "I will oppress Moab!" In my days he said so. But I looked down on him and on his house, and Israel has been defeated; it has been defeated forever! And Omri took possession of the whole land of Medeba, and he lived there in his days and half the days of his son: forty years. But Kemosh restored it in my days.”

    http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/westsem/mesha.html

    - just as the Sumerian text “The Curse of Agade” ascribes the destruction of that city to the anger of several gods:

    “222-244 Again, Suen, Enki, Inana, Ninurta, I[sh]kur, Utu, Nuska and Nisaba, all the gods whosoever, turned their attention to the city, and cursed Agade severely: "City, you pounced on E-kur: it is as if you had pounced on Enlil! Agade, you pounced on E-kur: it is as if you had pounced on Enlil! May your holy walls, to their highest point, resound with mourning! May your giguna be reduced to a pile of dust! May your pilasters with the standing lahama deities fall to the ground like tall young men drunk on wine! May your clay be returned to its abzu, may it be clay cursed by Enki! May your grain be returned to its furrow, may it be grain cursed by Ezinu! May your timber be returned to its forest, may it be timber cursed by Ninilduma! May the (1 ms. has instead: your) cattle slaughterer slaughter his wife, may your (some mss. have instead: the) sheep butcher butcher his child! May water wash away your pauper as he is looking for ......! May your prostitute hang herself at the entrance to her brothel! May your pregnant (?) hierodules and cult prostitutes abort (?) their children! May your gold be bought for the price of silver, may your silver be bought for the price of pyrite (?), and may your copper be bought for the price of lead!"”

    http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section2/tr215.htm

    The Israelites shared many of the religious and cultural ideas common to their neighbours. Israel was special, not in itself, but because of the God Who had graciously entered into a covenant with it, and chosen it as His own People. And the Bible, as a Divine revelation, is a progressive revelation - ideas current in an earlier time, are questioned, and deepened or modified, or even reversed, later on. The Book of Job is an example of this process: Job’s friends express the idea that suffering must be the result of personal sin, whereas Job stands for the insight that suffering can come to the righteous and innocent. The Death of Christ is the supreme Example of the suffering of someone Who is truly innocent in every way.

    All the Bible is ‘God-breathed” - it does not follow, that everything in it is an equally final and full expression of God’s Will and Truth. One cannot simply pluck a verse from any part of it, and treat that as the complete and final expression of God’s Revelation. The supreme revelation of God is not a book, however sacred, but a Person, the God-man Jesus Christ, Who is Emmanuel, “God-with-us”, God Who is a man like us in all things, with the sole exception of sin.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 11-24-2019 at 05:03 PM.

  8. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Sparko, does your bible have 66 books of the protestant or 73 of the catholic or more?
    Same here is your answer from Christian scholar, Sam Sam Shamoun:

    The 7 books which are included in the Catholic Bible are called the Jewish Apocrypha, literature compiled after the last O.T. book Malachi. These books are not inspired nor are they part of the Hebrew Bible. The Protestants reject these books for the following reasons:

    1. They were never recognized by the Jews as being part of the canon of scripture since they were not written by inspired men of God. The Talmud states:

    Our Rabbis taught: Since the death of the last prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit [of prophetic inspiration] departed from Israel. (Sanhedrin 11a)

    This clearly demonstrates that the Jews viewed all the literature written after Malachi as being uninspired. It also affirms that the New Testament picks up where the Old leaves off, since the authors affirmed inspiration for their writings. (Cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 5:18- Luke 10:7; 2 Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16; Rev. 1:1-3)

    In fact, certain books of the Apocrypha flat out deny inspiration. (Cf. 1 Maccabees 9:27) This fact alone is enough to convince someone of the uninspired status of these writings.

    2. At the Council of Jamnia, A.D. 90, Rabbis headed by Yohannan ben Zakkai acknowledged the 39 books which comprise the present Hebrew and Protestant OT canon as the official Word of God. Everything else was discarded. It should be pointed that this Council did not make the books canonical, but arrived at the conclusion that only these particular books were received throughout the generations as being that which God inspired.

    3. The Lord Jesus personally affirms the Protestant OT canon. During the time of Christ, the Old Testament was classified into three sections: "The Law," containing the five books of Moses. "The Prophets" which included two subdivisions. The first called "the Former Prophets" and included the books of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings. The second is called "the Latter Prophets" which included the books beginning with Isaiah to Ezekiel with the exception of Lamentations; and from Hosea to Malachi. These books were also subsumed into smaller lists such as combining the books from Hosea to Malachi together into one scroll called "the minor Prophets."

    The third is "the Writings" or "Psalms." This section consisted first of Psalms, Proverbs and Job; then the "Scrolls" of Song of Songs, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther and finally Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. This gives us a total of 39 OT books, the precise canon of books alluded to by Christ:

    "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44 KJV

    Jesus affirms the OT division of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms/Writings as being those books which prophesied his coming. No mention of the Apocrypha at all.

    4. The 7 books were not officially declared to be part of the Catholic OT canon until the Council of Trent, A.D. 1546. This was primarily in response to the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and their attacks on doctrines such as indulgences. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees 12:46 (Douay), praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins is commended. Hence, it is not hard to imagine why Catholics would want to include such a book since it supports their doctrine of praying for souls caught in purgatory, something rejected by the Reformers.

    Yet, amazingly, a book which was not included as part of the canon, despite the fact that it also formed part of the Apocrypha literature, is 2 Esdras (4 Esdra by Roman Catholics). This book rejects prayers for the dead. (Cf. 2 Esdra 7:105) The acceptance of 2 Maccabees and the rejection of 2 Esdras affirms the total arbitrariness of the decision behind the choosing of books which supported Catholic doctrine, while rejecting those that did not.

    5. The Quran acknowledges the canon of the Bible which existed at the time of Muhammad as being the Word of God. (Cf. S. 2:113; 3:79; 10:94) The canon which was in existence at that time were the 39 books of the OT and the 27 N.T. books. These are the books that form the present day canon of the Protestant Bible.

    As was indicated, the canon of the OT had been finalized in the latter half of the first century. Whereas the New Testament canon was officially decided upon in the fourth century at the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

    Hence, any books which were added to the Bible after these Councils cannot be accepted as the Word of God. God has given the Church the 66 books of the Protestant Bible to form his infallible rule of Christian faith. This is a fact which the Quran affirms.

  9. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Same here is your answer from Christian scholar, Sam Sam Shamoun:

    The 7 books which are included in the Catholic Bible are called the Jewish Apocrypha, literature compiled after the last O.T. book Malachi. These books are not inspired nor are they part of the Hebrew Bible. The Protestants reject these books for the following reasons:

    1. They were never recognized by the Jews as being part of the canon of scripture since they were not written by inspired men of God. The Talmud states:

    Our Rabbis taught: Since the death of the last prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit [of prophetic inspiration] departed from Israel. (Sanhedrin 11a)

    This clearly demonstrates that the Jews viewed all the literature written after Malachi as being uninspired. It also affirms that the New Testament picks up where the Old leaves off, since the authors affirmed inspiration for their writings. (Cf. 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 1 Tim. 5:18- Luke 10:7; 2 Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16; Rev. 1:1-3)

    In fact, certain books of the Apocrypha flat out deny inspiration. (Cf. 1 Maccabees 9:27) This fact alone is enough to convince someone of the uninspired status of these writings.

    2. At the Council of Jamnia, A.D. 90, Rabbis headed by Yohannan ben Zakkai acknowledged the 39 books which comprise the present Hebrew and Protestant OT canon as the official Word of God. Everything else was discarded. It should be pointed that this Council did not make the books canonical, but arrived at the conclusion that only these particular books were received throughout the generations as being that which God inspired.

    3. The Lord Jesus personally affirms the Protestant OT canon. During the time of Christ, the Old Testament was classified into three sections: "The Law," containing the five books of Moses. "The Prophets" which included two subdivisions. The first called "the Former Prophets" and included the books of Joshua, Judges, Ruth, Samuel and Kings. The second is called "the Latter Prophets" which included the books beginning with Isaiah to Ezekiel with the exception of Lamentations; and from Hosea to Malachi. These books were also subsumed into smaller lists such as combining the books from Hosea to Malachi together into one scroll called "the minor Prophets."

    The third is "the Writings" or "Psalms." This section consisted first of Psalms, Proverbs and Job; then the "Scrolls" of Song of Songs, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther and finally Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles. This gives us a total of 39 OT books, the precise canon of books alluded to by Christ:

    "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44 KJV

    Jesus affirms the OT division of the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms/Writings as being those books which prophesied his coming. No mention of the Apocrypha at all.

    4. The 7 books were not officially declared to be part of the Catholic OT canon until the Council of Trent, A.D. 1546. This was primarily in response to the Protestant Reformers such as Martin Luther and their attacks on doctrines such as indulgences. In one of these books, 2 Maccabees 12:46 (Douay), praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins is commended. Hence, it is not hard to imagine why Catholics would want to include such a book since it supports their doctrine of praying for souls caught in purgatory, something rejected by the Reformers.

    Yet, amazingly, a book which was not included as part of the canon, despite the fact that it also formed part of the Apocrypha literature, is 2 Esdras (4 Esdra by Roman Catholics). This book rejects prayers for the dead. (Cf. 2 Esdra 7:105) The acceptance of 2 Maccabees and the rejection of 2 Esdras affirms the total arbitrariness of the decision behind the choosing of books which supported Catholic doctrine, while rejecting those that did not.

    5. The Quran acknowledges the canon of the Bible which existed at the time of Muhammad as being the Word of God. (Cf. S. 2:113; 3:79; 10:94) The canon which was in existence at that time were the 39 books of the OT and the 27 N.T. books. These are the books that form the present day canon of the Protestant Bible.

    As was indicated, the canon of the OT had been finalized in the latter half of the first century. Whereas the New Testament canon was officially decided upon in the fourth century at the Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397).

    Hence, any books which were added to the Bible after these Councils cannot be accepted as the Word of God. God has given the Church the 66 books of the Protestant Bible to form his infallible rule of Christian faith. This is a fact which the Quran affirms.
    So the Bible is not one; there is the 66 books bible of the protestant, the 73 books bible of the Catholic, and 79 books bible of the Greek orthodox.

    Each Christian of Protestant, Catholic, and Greek Orthodox claims that their bible is inspired and cannot be from God because God is not the author of confusion according to 1 Corinthians 14:33

  10. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    So the Bible is not one; there is the 66 books bible of the protestant, the 73 books bible of the Catholic, and 79 books bible of the Greek orthodox.

    Each Christian of Protestant, Catholic, and Greek Orthodox claims that their bible is inspired and cannot be from God because God is not the author of confusion according to 1 Corinthians 14:33
    Did you even read that? Be honest.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  11. Amen Chaotic Void, Christian3 amen'd this post.
  12. #340
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    So the Bible is not one; there is the 66 books bible of the protestant, the 73 books bible of the Catholic, and 79 books bible of the Greek orthodox.

    Each Christian of Protestant, Catholic, and Greek Orthodox claims that their bible is inspired and cannot be from God because God is not the author of confusion according to 1 Corinthians 14:33
    002.136
    PICKTHAL: Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

    Muslims are commanded to believe in God's Holy Bible. Notice that they must not make any distinction between the past revelations and the revelations in the Qur'an. The revelations of the Qur'an and the revelations of the Bible are to be accepted as equals.

    You would be better off trying to defend your faith and explaining why the Qur'an contains so much Jewish and Christian folklore.

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

    https://www.answering-islam.org/Book...ces0/index.htm

    It appears Muhammad could not tell true revelation from the false.

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