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No longer a sinner after salvation?

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  • No longer a sinner after salvation?

    After one is converted to Christ, does that mean that he is no longer a sinner? I sometimes hear street preachers say that one is no longer a sinner after he or she becomes a Christian. Sometimes people approach these street preachers and say, "Everyone is a sinner." Those street preachers reply, "Christians are not sinners. If you sin, you are not a Christian." It is true that Christians have a new nature. When God saves a person, He changes that person's life. However, he cannot obey God perfectly. I'm just wondering. What is their definition of sin?

  • #2
    When we become a believer, we are saved from the power of sin in our lives, and the penalty of sin.

    But we are not free from the presence of sin. We struggle with sin every moment of every day. Paul makes that very clear in Romans 7:

    15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

    16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

    17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

    19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

    20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


    We will be free from the presence of sin in our lives when we enter eternity. Anyone who says he does not sin is a liar and has deceived himself.

    I grew up in a denomination that claimed that once you became a believer you didn't sin anymore. My grandfather wasn't happy when I left that church because I couldn't reconcile that teaching with scripture. I still have a letter he wrote me that says, "We don't sin. We make errors in judgment and mistakes, but we don't sin".

    Maybe that is their definition of what is NOT sin?
    Last edited by mossrose; 04-08-2017, 08:20 PM.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #3
      John Wesley taught that Christians reach a state of sinless perfection. I believe this was an error that has unfortunately influenced many people since then. mossy already posted Romans 7, but there are other scriptures as well that are relevant.

      1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Also, 1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. This flat out states that it is possible for Christians to sin; they should strive not to and hopefully will sin less and less as they grow in their faith, but it is nonetheless possible. I also want to mention 1 Timothy 1:15, where Paul describes himself as the "chief of sinners". He's probably mostly describing what he did before his conversion, but it's worth noting that he is still identifying himself as a sinner there (despite the fact that they have been forgiven).
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        John Wesley taught that Christians reach a state of sinless perfection. I believe this was an error that has unfortunately influenced many people since then. mossy already posted Romans 7, but there are other scriptures as well that are relevant.

        1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Also, 1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. This flat out states that it is possible for Christians to sin; they should strive not to and hopefully will sin less and less as they grow in their faith, but it is nonetheless possible. I also want to mention 1 Timothy 1:15, where Paul describes himself as the "chief of sinners". He's probably mostly describing what he did before his conversion, but it's worth noting that he is still identifying himself as a sinner there (despite the fact that they have been forgiven).
        And the church that I grew up in was based on Wesleyan theology.

        Good other scriptures!


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have never met anyone who had reach sinless perfection.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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          • #6
            Peter sinned when he didn't eat with gentiles yet he was still saved. Salvation is accepting the free gift of grace in faith to Christ who died for our sins.
            sigpic

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            • #7
              1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

              It makes a pretty argument until it is noticed that the "IF" makes it clear that both sinning and not sinning are possible. The argument does not hold when 2:3-4 is taken into account, and when 1 John 3 (particularly verses 3 and 4) is taken into account: then a closer consideration of the statement in 1 John 1:8 becomes advisable.

              Does "If we claim to be without sin" mean "If we claim that we do not sin"? The word in Koine Greek is "hold/possess" ... Does that really mean "perform/do"?


              1 Timothy 1:15, where Paul describes himself as the "chief of sinners". He's probably mostly describing what he did before his conversion, but it's worth noting that he is still identifying himself as a sinner there (despite the fact that they have been forgiven).
              Given that Paul explicitly states that he is the worst of sinners because of his prior deeds, there is no "probably" in sight - the correct word is "definitely." Paul's position is the very same that 1 John 1:8 is referring to.
              Last edited by tabibito; 04-08-2017, 10:36 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #8
                It is possible to define "sinner" so that we are no longer sinners after salvation. Such a definition would not be anything but a word game. I am a sinner saved by grace. I know the stuff that goes on in my mind, it is sin. Just because I do not act on those thoughts does not make me no sinner. Some folks seem to think that sin is only defined by certain actual actions. I disagree.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Tis equally possible to define temptation as sin. I haven't seen anything to suggest that attaining to living without committing sin is an instantaneous change - nor have I seen anything to suggest that it is unattainable.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    When we become a believer, we are saved from the power of sin in our lives, and the penalty of sin.

                    But we are not free from the presence of sin. We struggle with sin every moment of every day. Paul makes that very clear in Romans 7:

                    15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

                    16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

                    17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

                    18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

                    19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

                    20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.


                    We will be free from the presence of sin in our lives when we enter eternity. Anyone who says he does not sin is a liar and has deceived himself.

                    I grew up in a denomination that claimed that once you became a believer you didn't sin anymore. My grandfather wasn't happy when I left that church because I couldn't reconcile that teaching with scripture. I still have a letter he wrote me that says, "We don't sin. We make errors in judgment and mistakes, but we don't sin".

                    Maybe that is their definition of what is NOT sin?
                    It is clear from Romans 7 that Paul still struggled with sin. He does the very thing that he hates.

                    I think those street preachers are not including errors of judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                      Peter sinned when he didn't eat with gentiles yet he was still saved. Salvation is accepting the free gift of grace in faith to Christ who died for our sins.
                      That's true. Paul rebuked Peter for doing that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                        It is clear from Romans 7 that Paul still struggled with sin. He does the very thing that he hates.

                        I think those street preachers are not including errors of judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin.
                        To address that claim, it would be necessary to indulge in some heavy explanations of the use of the present tense form of verbs in Koine Greek grammar.
                        Keeping it short, present tense can be used in Koine for events occurring in the past - as shown repeatedly in the gospels - though translators generally correct the form for English grammar in those passages.
                        So, what makes the second half of Romans 7 refer to the state of affairs then current for Paul? If so, the second half of Romans 7 is in conflict with the first half of chapter 7 and chapter 8.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The Christian's spiritual nature, which has been reborn, does not sin. The flesh, which has not yet been reborn, still sins. There is a battle between them. That is why Paul says that we must continually put on the new man, like we put on clothes each day.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                            It is clear from Romans 7 that Paul still struggled with sin. He does the very thing that he hates.

                            I think those street preachers are not including errors of judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin.

                            My grandfather wasn't including errors in judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin, either. He was saying we don't sin anymore but we do those instead.

                            Rationalization, in my opinion.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                              It is clear from Romans 7 that Paul still struggled with sin. He does the very thing that he hates.

                              I think those street preachers are not including errors of judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin.
                              And which part of Romans 7 would that be?

                              This one perhaps?
                              [i]7:5 For when we WERE in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[i]

                              7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
                              8:2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
                              8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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