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Thread: No longer a sinner after salvation?

  1. #21
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    To address that claim, it would be necessary to indulge in some heavy explanations of the use of the present tense form of verbs in Koine Greek grammar.
    Keeping it short, present tense can be used in Koine for events occurring in the past - as shown repeatedly in the gospels - though translators generally correct the form for English grammar in those passages.
    So, what makes the second half of Romans 7 refer to the state of affairs then current for Paul? If so, the second half of Romans 7 is in conflict with the first half of chapter 7 and chapter 8.
    Paulís change from past tense in Romans 7:1-13 to present tense in Romans 7:14-25 implies that he is changing from his description of an unsaved man to a saved man.

    Romans 7:14-25 describes someone who wants to live a holy life, but an unbeliever is described as someone who is hostile towards God (Romans 3:10).

    The conflict between the flesh and the spirit mentioned in Romans 7:14-25 does not go against what a Christian can experience. Galatians 5:16-17 describes this same experience.
    Last edited by Jaxb; 04-12-2017 at 08:10 PM.

  2. Amen Obsidian amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxb View Post
    Paulís change from past tense in Romans 7:1-13 to present tense in Romans 7:14-25 implies that he is changing from his description of an unsaved man to a saved man.
    3 And when [b]the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    In verses 3 and 4, aorist tense is used (which translates in this context to English past tense). The switch to present tense in verses 5 and 6 does not indicate a change of time. Simple present verb forms are used, but the passage refers to events that are in the past - in accordance with the context established by the earlier verses.
    The same occurs in Romans 7 - the change to PRESENT circumstances is explicitly stated in chapter 8:1
    Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

    Paul says that he is in the flesh (Romans 7:14), but that other Christians are not: Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh

    Is that really a viable interpretation?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  4. #23
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    "I am carnal" is not the same as saying, "I am in the flesh." The saved believer has two natures: A perfect spiritual nature, and a flawed carnal nature. When Paul uses the phrases to "[be] in the flesh" or to "live in the flesh," he is referring to those who only have the flesh giving them life (i.e., a very temporary form of 'life'). Conversely, when he uses words like "carnal," he means that they are (at least) partly made of flesh but may also have the Spirit and simply be suppressing it.

    Likewise, the phrase "[being or living] in the Spirit" means people who are saved. But walking in the Spirit means people who are saved that also act rightly.

    Galatians 5:25
    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

  5. #24
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Ah yes, I had allowed that reference to slip my mind:
    Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh

    So is the claim now to be made that no human can walk by the Spirit?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  6. #25
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Ah yes, I had allowed that reference to slip my mind:
    Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh

    So is the claim now to be made that no human can walk by the Spirit?
    I think the question is more if any human can walk perfectly by the Spirit. My guess is no, but I'm not going to die for that guess.

  7. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    A quick check of the parable of the unforgiving servant might give a LEAD toward the answer. (Matt 18:26-34) ... Is God's forgiveness unconditional? Not if God acts as does the king in that parable. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #27
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito
    Is God's forgiveness unconditional? Not if God acts as does the king in that parable. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants
    That parable isn't talking about how an unbeliever gets 'forgiven,' in the sense of getting into the heavenly kingdom in the first place. Instead, it shows how God deals with people after they have entered the kingdom (i.e., become servants), if they oppress their fellow believers.

  10. #28
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    That parable isn't talking about how an unbeliever gets 'forgiven,' in the sense of getting into the heavenly kingdom in the first place. Instead, it shows how God deals with people after they have entered the kingdom (i.e., become servants), if they oppress their fellow believers.
    So - a servant of God who does not act appropriately gets expelled to prison. Your point?
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  11. #29
    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Not "expelled" to prison. Sent to prison. For crying out loud, at least get the terminology right. And it was the servant's victim who only got prison. The bad servant actually got tortured.

  12. #30
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Depending on context, παρεδωκεν actually means he, she, or it: surrendered, entrusted, transmitted, offered, allowed, bestowed, betrayed - and "expelled" is for context an acceptable rendering: but yes, he was handed to the tormentors, questioners, torturers, inquisitors as you have stated.
    So his debt having been forgiven, the servant went on to be unforgiving, whereupon the forgiveness was annulled (as demonstrated by the fact that he was delivered into the hands of the tormentors until such time as his debt had been repaid.)

    So - forgiveness of obligations, duties, debts, is demonstrated to not be unconditional.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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