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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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No longer a sinner after salvation?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    My grandfather wasn't including errors in judgment and mistakes in the concept of sin, either. He was saying we don't sin anymore but we do those instead.

    Rationalization, in my opinion.
    An interesting aside, and sort of off topic, but the same denomination, that believes that once you are saved you don't sin anymore, also believes that you can lose your salvation.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #17
      There is a fairly well known street preacher who focuses on college campuses. I came across him several times when I was in college. He liked to claim he had not sinned since the 1960s. Ironically, through his pride, I think he actually did sin on a regular basis. Once, he accused a man and woman walking together on my campus of committing sexual sin with each other, having no idea that they were brother and sister.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #18
        1 John 1:9 says "We deceive ourselves" about it, because we generally aren't deceiving anyone else.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          1 John 1:9 says "We deceive ourselves" about it, because we generally aren't deceiving anyone else.
          Verse 10 goes on to say, "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." So ?
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #20
            A Christian is to be no longer under the Law 1 John 3;4, 6; Romans 6:14; Galatian 3:10; Deuteronomy 27:26; James 2:10; Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:4, 18. Read contexts. 1 John 1:9-2:2.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              To address that claim, it would be necessary to indulge in some heavy explanations of the use of the present tense form of verbs in Koine Greek grammar.
              Keeping it short, present tense can be used in Koine for events occurring in the past - as shown repeatedly in the gospels - though translators generally correct the form for English grammar in those passages.
              So, what makes the second half of Romans 7 refer to the state of affairs then current for Paul? If so, the second half of Romans 7 is in conflict with the first half of chapter 7 and chapter 8.
              Paul’s change from past tense in Romans 7:1-13 to present tense in Romans 7:14-25 implies that he is changing from his description of an unsaved man to a saved man.

              Romans 7:14-25 describes someone who wants to live a holy life, but an unbeliever is described as someone who is hostile towards God (Romans 3:10).

              The conflict between the flesh and the spirit mentioned in Romans 7:14-25 does not go against what a Christian can experience. Galatians 5:16-17 describes this same experience.
              Last edited by Jaxb; 04-12-2017, 03:10 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Jaxb View Post
                Paul’s change from past tense in Romans 7:1-13 to present tense in Romans 7:14-25 implies that he is changing from his description of an unsaved man to a saved man.
                3 And when [b]the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
                In verses 3 and 4, aorist tense is used (which translates in this context to English past tense). The switch to present tense in verses 5 and 6 does not indicate a change of time. Simple present verb forms are used, but the passage refers to events that are in the past - in accordance with the context established by the earlier verses.
                The same occurs in Romans 7 - the change to PRESENT circumstances is explicitly stated in chapter 8:1
                Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

                Paul says that he is in the flesh (Romans 7:14), but that other Christians are not: Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh

                Is that really a viable interpretation?
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  "I am carnal" is not the same as saying, "I am in the flesh." The saved believer has two natures: A perfect spiritual nature, and a flawed carnal nature. When Paul uses the phrases to "[be] in the flesh" or to "live in the flesh," he is referring to those who only have the flesh giving them life (i.e., a very temporary form of 'life'). Conversely, when he uses words like "carnal," he means that they are (at least) partly made of flesh but may also have the Spirit and simply be suppressing it.

                  Likewise, the phrase "[being or living] in the Spirit" means people who are saved. But walking in the Spirit means people who are saved that also act rightly.

                  Galatians 5:25
                  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

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                  • #24
                    Ah yes, I had allowed that reference to slip my mind:
                    Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh

                    So is the claim now to be made that no human can walk by the Spirit?
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Ah yes, I had allowed that reference to slip my mind:
                      Galatians 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh

                      So is the claim now to be made that no human can walk by the Spirit?
                      I think the question is more if any human can walk perfectly by the Spirit. My guess is no, but I'm not going to die for that guess.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        A quick check of the parable of the unforgiving servant might give a LEAD toward the answer. (Matt 18:26-34) ... Is God's forgiveness unconditional? Not if God acts as does the king in that parable. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito
                          Is God's forgiveness unconditional? Not if God acts as does the king in that parable. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants
                          That parable isn't talking about how an unbeliever gets 'forgiven,' in the sense of getting into the heavenly kingdom in the first place. Instead, it shows how God deals with people after they have entered the kingdom (i.e., become servants), if they oppress their fellow believers.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                            That parable isn't talking about how an unbeliever gets 'forgiven,' in the sense of getting into the heavenly kingdom in the first place. Instead, it shows how God deals with people after they have entered the kingdom (i.e., become servants), if they oppress their fellow believers.
                            So - a servant of God who does not act appropriately gets expelled to prison. Your point?
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Not "expelled" to prison. Sent to prison. For crying out loud, at least get the terminology right. And it was the servant's victim who only got prison. The bad servant actually got tortured.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Depending on context, παρεδωκεν actually means he, she, or it: surrendered, entrusted, transmitted, offered, allowed, bestowed, betrayed - and "expelled" is for context an acceptable rendering: but yes, he was handed to the tormentors, questioners, torturers, inquisitors as you have stated.
                                So his debt having been forgiven, the servant went on to be unforgiving, whereupon the forgiveness was annulled (as demonstrated by the fact that he was delivered into the hands of the tormentors until such time as his debt had been repaid.)

                                So - forgiveness of obligations, duties, debts, is demonstrated to not be unconditional.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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