Who were the Danites?

[Cow Poke]

In reading FAIR, I came across the term "Danites". I had seen this name before, but didn't know who they were. I ASSUMED (incorrectly) that they must have been a splinter group of Mormons.

FAIR indicates otherwise...

FAIR

The Danites were a brotherhood of church members that formed in Far West, Missouri in mid-1838. By this point in time, the Saints had experienced serious persecution, having been driven out of Kirtland by apostates, and driven out of Jackson County by mobs. Sidney Rigdon was publicly preaching that the Saints would not tolerate any more persecution, and that both apostates and mobs would be put on notice. The Danite organization took root within this highly charged and defensive environment.
The Danites are sometimes confused with the “Armies of Israel,” which was the official defensive organization that was tasked with defending the Saints. This is complicated by the fact that members of the Danite organization also served in the “Armies of Israel.”

© source where applicable

First - "having been driven out of Kirtland by apostates" -- these are former Mormons who apostatized? OR these were non-Mormons?

Second - the "mobs". Rigdon appears to be declaring war on the "apostates and mobs". Again - former Mormons? or non-Mormons?

Third - "The Danite organization took root within this highly charged and defensive environment" - took root how? Authorized by Rigdon as defenders of the Mormons? It would appear so, because later in the article, it talks about how some of the Danites became vigilantes - and some were members of the "Armies of Israel", etc....

Again, this is not some wild-eyed Anti-Mormon site I'm citing, but FAIR....

FAIR

The Danites were led by Dr. Sampson Avard, and the group appears to have been formally formed about the time that Sidney Rigdon gave his “Salt Sermon” in Far West, in which he gave apostates an ultimatum to get out or suffer consequences.[1] According to Avard, the original purpose of the band was to “drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church.”[2] Once the dissenters had left the country, the Danites turned their attention to defending the Saints from mobs. Avard, however, took this purpose one step further by including retaliation against those who persecuted the Saints. Thus, the Danites began operating as a vigilante group outside the law. This, unfortunately, included stealing and plundering from those who stole and plundered from the Saints.[3] The Danites believed that if they consecrated plundered goods to the Church, that they would be protected in battle.[4] The group held secret meetings, with special signs used to identify themselves to one another.

© source where applicable

The "apostates" were given the ultimatum to get out or "suffer the consequences". The article states that they were to "drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church." That doesn't sound "defensive" as much as it sounds "aggressive".

The "secret meetings" with "special signs" to identify one another sounds like Masonic practices all over again.

FAIR's "conclusion" states....

FAIR

Regardless of their original motives, the Danites ultimately were led astray by their leader, Sampson Avard. Avard attempted to blame Joseph Smith in order to save himself. Joseph, however, clearly repudiated both the organization and Avard.

© source where applicable

It APPEARS that the Danites were quite useful to the Church, but as they "got out of hand", it came time to throw them under the bus.

Naturally, I can see LDS members defending this as "times were tough, there was persecution, etc".... But I wonder how much of this persecution was CAUSED by attitudes such as the Danite Band who's official purpose seemed to be to "drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church."

Does "dissenting from" mean those who were former members but left? Or does it simply mean those who did not agree with Mormonism?

[OtherCheek]

In reading FAIR, I came across the term "Danites". I had seen this name before, but didn't know who they were. I ASSUMED (incorrectly) that they must have been a splinter group of Mormons.

FAIR indicates otherwise...

FAIR

The Danites were a brotherhood of church members that formed in Far West, Missouri in mid-1838. By this point in time, the Saints had experienced serious persecution, having been driven out of Kirtland by apostates, and driven out of Jackson County by mobs. Sidney Rigdon was publicly preaching that the Saints would not tolerate any more persecution, and that both apostates and mobs would be put on notice. The Danite organization took root within this highly charged and defensive environment.
The Danites are sometimes confused with the “Armies of Israel,” which was the official defensive organization that was tasked with defending the Saints. This is complicated by the fact that members of the Danite organization also served in the “Armies of Israel.”

© source where applicable

First - "having been driven out of Kirtland by apostates" -- these are former Mormons who apostatized? OR these were non-Mormons?

Mostly former members, I would say. The Danites didn't organize to oppose Non-Mormons who left Mormons alone in peace. Generally those who drove Mormons from their homes, raped their women and shot them and stole their property were called ANTI Mormons.

Second - the "mobs". Rigdon appears to be declaring war on the "apostates and mobs". Again - former Mormons? or ANTI-Mormons?

Both former and ANTI-Mormons who had never been former members who had taken it upon themselves to persecute the Mormons.

Third - "The Danite organization took root within this highly charged and defensive environment" - took root how? Authorized by Rigdon as defenders of the Mormons? It would appear so, because later in the article, it talks about how some of the Danites became vigilantes - and some were members of the "Armies of Israel", etc....

Again, this is not some wild-eyed Anti-Mormon site I'm citing, but FAIR....

FAIR

The Danites were led by Dr. Sampson Avard, and the group appears to have been formally formed about the time that Sidney Rigdon gave his “Salt Sermon” in Far West, in which he gave apostates an ultimatum to get out or suffer consequences.[1] According to Avard, the original purpose of the band was to “drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church.”[2] Once the dissenters had left the country, the Danites turned their attention to defending the Saints from mobs. Avard, however, took this purpose one step further by including retaliation against those who persecuted the Saints. Thus, the Danites began operating as a vigilante group outside the law. This, unfortunately, included stealing and plundering from those who stole and plundered from the Saints.[3] The Danites believed that if they consecrated plundered goods to the Church, that they would be protected in battle.[4] The group held secret meetings, with special signs used to identify themselves to one another.

© source where applicable

I don't know if Rigdon organized them or not. It seems to have been organized by Samson Avard during a time of a very tense situation. They turned vigilante and were discovered publicly and then were disbanded that same year.

The "apostates" were given the ultimatum to get out or "suffer the consequences". The article states that they were to "drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church." That doesn't sound "defensive" as much as it sounds "aggressive".

The "secret meetings" with "special signs" to identify one another sounds like Masonic practices all over again.

FAIR's "conclusion" states....

FAIR

Regardless of their original motives, the Danites ultimately were led astray by their leader, Sampson Avard. Avard attempted to blame Joseph Smith in order to save himself. Joseph, however, clearly repudiated both the organization and Avard.

© source where applicable

It APPEARS that the Danites were quite useful to the Church, but as they "got out of hand", it came time to throw them under the bus.

Naturally, I can see LDS members defending this as "times were tough, there was persecution, etc".... But I wonder how much of this persecution was CAUSED by attitudes such as the Danite Band who's official purpose seemed to be to "drive from the county of Caldwell all that dissented from the Mormon church."

Does "dissenting from" mean those who were former members but left? Or does it simply mean those who did not agree with Mormonism?

Yep. Vigilante groups will find ways to justify their actions.

Dissenting means "turned anti and bitter towards."

[Sparko]

oh noes!! watch out CP! The Danites are coming for us ANTs!

[Hamster]

Generally those who drove Mormons from their homes, raped their women and shot them and stole their property were called ANTI Mormons.

Good Lord, and that's the label you put on forums contributors who argue against the LDS?

[Cow Poke]

Mostly former members, I would say.

Have you ever wondered what it is about Mormonism that attracts the kind of people who would so violently turn against their faith? I don't see this in other religions - when people leave, they leave.

The Danites didn't organize to oppose Non-Mormons who left Mormons alone in peace. Generally those who drove Mormons from their homes, raped their women and shot them and stole their property were called ANTI Mormons.

First - this charge of "rape" - while it's quite theatrical and certainly emotional and horrible, I don't find it mentioned in any of the documents I've read - all of which come from Mormon sources. Please provide some foundation for this.

Both former and ANTI-Mormons who had never been former members who had taken it upon themselves to persecute the Mormons.

Why? Think about this, OC - your church seems to have a history of "former members" ATTACKING your church. Is it possible that they helped stir up the people who had "never been former members"?

I don't know if Rigdon organized them or not. It seems to have been organized by Samson Avard during a time of a very tense situation. They turned vigilante and were discovered publicly and then were disbanded that same year.

According to BYU Studies, a lot of the problems in Missouri were "financial", and related to "unwise business dealings", including the failure of the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society. Talk about ANTIs! BYU Studies calls this "a very troubling period" in the life of the Church. And it appears that some of these same Danite members were active participants in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Yep. Vigilante groups will find ways to justify their actions.

These particular vigilantes were "home grown", OC. They were members of your Church. It appears they went "rogue", but who can know that? And, remember, I'm using entirely Mormon sources for this discussion.

"Dissenting means "turned anti and bitter towards."

OK, I'm glad we don't have to argue over that definition.

WHY?

[Sparko]

Dang. I haven't done much pillaging lately, even though I am a pirate. I miss it.

I think we need to go raid the other forums again for bacon.

[Cow Poke]

The Kirtland Bank as a primary cause of the troubles in Missouri.

Attachment 86529

Please note that the article cites the Kirtland Bank SCHEME (it uses that word) as a primary cause for the troubles, and even some members of the apostolic Quorum of the Tweleve blamed Smith and his supporters for their financial distress.

We have, of course, looked at the Kirtland Bank scheme elsewhere, but I had no idea it played a "prime cause" for the "troubles" in Missouri.

Documents here

[Sparko]

dont forget your citation CP. where was that from?

[Cow Poke]

dont forget your citation CP. where was that from?

At the bottom of the post - "Documents here"...
It was a PDF so I couldn't do my usual [cite= ] and reference.

[JB]

At the bottom of the post - "Documents here"...
It was a PDF so I couldn't do my usual [cite= ] and reference.

What page was it from?

[Cow Poke]

It's a wacky website - hold on, and I'll get the...

Page 422 - The Danite Band of 1838, Leleand H Gentry - The Rise of the Dissenters

[Cow Poke]

From Page 503 of that same site -

Attachment 86530

Referencing the speech on the Fourth of July, 1838, this "rare document" sheds a little bit of light on the problems in Missouri...

It was put into print, not just in the newspaper, but as a circular... (this is "freedom of speech / the press" in action) which, according to Mormon sources, helped fan the flames and fuel the mobs.

[JB]

Thanks for the citations, CP.

I'm looking through Rigdon's oration right now, and although it's not terribly on-topic for this thread, I wanted to pull out this quote so I can think about it more later:

What is religion without intelligence? - an empty sound. Intelligence is the root, from which all true enjoyments flow. Intelligence is religion, and religion is intelligence, if it is any thing. Take intelligence from it, and what is left? a name - a sound without meaning. If a person desires to be truly pious in the sight of God, he must be purely intelligent. Piety without intelligence, is fanaticism, and devotion without understanding, is enthusiasm.

Taken from pp. 523-524.

[Cow Poke]

I lived in the North during my High School years, and I remember well my history lessons from the Civil War. I LOVE History, and I paid really close attention.

This, however, worked AGAINST me as I enrolled in a Bible College in the South, where my college curriculum included a required course in "Civil War History". I didn't mind, because I knew I would get a "different" perspective. I was now taking a course in "enemy territory"

On the first day of class, the professor, quite the "Southern Gentleman", made his opening address to the class, informing us that we were about to study the finer points of the "War of Northern Aggression". THAT caught my attention. And as we proceeded through the semester, I was AMAZED at what a "different" war this was - different battles were highlighted, different military commanders were featured... It was hard to believe it was the SAME WAR!

I think about this as I read Mormon History. In my 1 year here on TWeb, I have constantly heard of the "persecution" of the Mormons - and it certainly was referred to in my history books throughout my education. But I always wondered what "triggered" such hostility, and why there was so much violence.

I realize that a Mormon growing up in a Mormon home would hear the "this side" view. I wonder if they ever investigated the "other side", or just took their own "side's" view as "History". As I visited the Civil War Cycloramas, first at Atlanta GA, then at Philadelphia, I saw AGAIN the differences in "presentation", and I believe I have a much better "over all" perspective.

I wonder if the Mormons have ever looked at the "other side", or simply circle the wagons and blame it all on the antis and dissenters. The dissenters were, of course, MORMONS. WHY did they dissent? Why so violently?

Here, from the same sources as earlier, some light on the "internal conflict"...


Attachment 86531

Page 423, as you can see - pretty interesting reading.

And PLEASE NOTE - I'm trying NOT to "pile on" - but simply pointing out MORMON perspectives.

[OtherCheek]

[QUOTE=CP;3076731]Have you ever wondered what it is about Mormonism that attracts the kind of people who would so violently turn against their faith? I don't see this in other religions - when people leave, they leave. [quote]

I did when I was a lot younger.

First - this charge of "rape" - while it's quite theatrical and certainly emotional and horrible, I don't find it mentioned in any of the documents I've read - all of which come from Mormon sources. Please provide some foundation for this.

From my great, great, grandfather's journal:

There was a mob of 1600 camped in the vicinity of Far West. Judas Iscariot [George M.] Hinkle came in and reported the state of affairs in the camp of the mobbers. A person destitute of the Spirit of Christ might think there was something sweet about Hinkle. Someone got up and spoke in tongues; and Betty Tubbs spoke, saying that she well realized that the time had come for all to put their trust in God and not on man, `and for every tub to sit on it's own bottom', then she sat down! A few days later, Hinkle formed a brotherhood in a hollow square, and made them cast their arms of defense on the ground. He then delivered the Prophet over to the mob! After they had taken the arms from the brethren, they kept the brethren in the square for three days and two nights without food. The mob became very brave after they had taken the brethren's arms. One of their officers complimented the men on their bravery, and said, "Now you can go and do as you please with their women". Many of them left with the intention of committing rapine. When the terrified women ran out to escape those brutal fiends, it was more than the men in the square could stand! They ran out to protect their loved ones; then the mobbers turned loose and shot down men, women, and children! They shot the children because they said that "Nits Make Lice". I saw C. C. Richardson going from Far West with a white flag of truce. As he and his companions approached the camp, they were fired upon by the mobbers. Luckily, none of the brethren were hit, and a truce was patched up. But the mobbers were not to be trusted. After the brethren had delivered up their arms, father mounted his horse Turk, and rode off to Adam-ondi-Ahman. A party of forty-two of the mobs cavalry started in pursuit of father. A whisper came to him, "Go through the Hale thicket, then turn to the left." This he did, and it brought him in the rear of the gang that was pursuing him. He said to one of the men in the rear, "Where has that fellow gone?" I don't know", was the answer, "but we will soon catch him." Father stopped his horse and pretended to tighten his saddle-girth and then he escaped from his pursuants.

Why? Think about this, OC - your church seems to have a history of "former members" ATTACKING your church. Is it possible that they helped stir up the people who had "never been former members"?

If I answered that, you would immediately choose the opposite and immediately be satisfied that you are right. So, I'll leave this one up to you.

According to BYU Studies, a lot of the problems in Missouri were "financial", and related to "unwise business dealings", including the failure of the Kirtland Anti-Banking Society.

That wouldn't be Missouri then, it would be Kirtland. The bank failed like many banks did at the time. Joseph's life was threatened. He fled to save his life from extermination.

Talk about ANTIs! BYU Studies calls this "a very troubling period" in the life of the Church. And it appears that some of these same Danite members were active participants in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

I wouldn't doubt it.

These particular vigilantes were "home grown", OC. They were members of your Church. It appears they went "rogue", but who can know that? And, remember, I'm using entirely Mormon sources for this discussion.

I think most vigilantes are home grown. What reason would they have to be vigilantes if they didn't have some personal grievance they were angry over. Such as Jewish vigilante groups today, or Christian vigilante groups today in the Phillippines, or some skinheads who call themselves Christian. Or KKK members who called themselves Christian. Most vigilantes seem to be home grown.