B. The Jewish God - Robertb

[headheart]

This is a split, from 'What have we learned?'

robertbee,

Now for this second issue.

Seeing as I am not really in the mood, to hunt around for all the bits and pieces of what you have written in the past (you are a classic one-line poster), perhaps you can just give me a more expanded version of your 'view' and what you 'think' about:

A. The Christian concept of Atonement
B. The Jewish God

Though you have made some pretty radical comments about both A & B, I have not read any clear defence of your 'view' or what you 'think' ... you have carte blanche, so ...bring it on robert the half a bee...!!!!

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[robertb]

From the two other threads:

You asked me to tell you my view of Christian Atonement. I did. You can, if you like, tell me why you believe that I am mistaken in my view.

Regarding the other issue, perhaps another time. Suffice it to say that you can always ask a Jew if they agree or not, if you would like.

[headheart]

Add 1: ROBERB'S INITIAL REPLY

The Answer, as provided by Robertb:

B. That is a very long discussion..

From: What Have We Learned : Post #100

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[headheart]

Bring it on brother, I ain't go nowhere.

[headheart]

"I do not think that Christians actually worship the Jewish God, even though they might believe that they do." ( Post #97 - What have we learned? by robertb)

Will you please explain your statement?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyers

[headheart]

a. 'John sure hated the Jews' ?
b. 'That gospel is pile of antisemetism' ?

From: Post 29 - I Am A God, I Am A Goddess ?

Question 2: Do you plan to explain your comment?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[headheart]

(My conclusion, from my personal studies, is that Christians actually worship the god of Marcion, (Paul) a god of love, mercy and extreme goodness), but that this god was repackaged as the god of the OT (along with all of Yahweh's interesting, though contradicting, character traits), to give the authority of antiquity to the church itself. Of course, as a result, creating some of these conundrums ) - From: Post #179 - True Go(o)d of True Go(o)d, Light of Light, One In Being...

Question 3: Would you please explain the thought processes, that led you to such a notion, as a conclusion ?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[robertb]

1. The Jews do not worship a triune god. Christians do.

2. John 8:42 - 47, for instance.

[robertb]

(My conclusion, from my personal studies, is that Christians actually worship the god of Marcion, (Paul) a god of love, mercy and extreme goodness), but that this god was repackaged as the god of the OT (along with all of Yahweh's interesting, though contradicting, character traits), to give the authority of antiquity to the church itself. Of course, as a result, creating some of these conundrums ) - From: Post #179 - True Go(o)d of True Go(o)d, Light of Light, One In Being...

Question 3: Would you please explain the thought processes, that led you to such a notion, as a conclusion ?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

Do you believe that your God condones genocide, Eric?

[headheart]

Question 4:

How many Gods, do you think Christians worship?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[robertb]

Christians think they worship one.


Now answer my question. Do you believe that your God condones genocide?

[headheart]

Christians think they worship one.

Most informed Christians, know they worship one God.

Now answer my question. Do you believe that your God condones genocide?

'Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.' (WOE - Genocide)

Question 5:
Do you think that the God of the Bible is to mankind, what Adolph Hitler was to the Jews?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[headheart]

a. 'John sure hated the Jews' ?
b. 'That gospel is pile of antisemetism' ?

From: Post 29 - I Am A God, I Am A Goddess ?

Question 2: Do you plan to explain your comment?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

2. John 8:42 - 47, for instance.

Question 6: Would you please explain how the passage you have chosen supports you claims?

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[headheart]

Question 2: Do you plan to explain your comment?

robertb,

At the end of your post 'What exactly is Sin?' , I left you a link to a book that was recommended to me by RBerman, and which will certainly go a long way towards giving you a more developed understanding of what is meant by 'the sacrifice of atonement' ( it sure beats the speculative and heretical writings, which you seem to have milked for a very watered down version of the gospel. )

As it seems that you are stuck on this idea 'John sure hated the Jews' and 'That gospel is pile of antisemetism' (and do not seem to be willing to support your statements, or answer when you are proved incorrect), I am going to type out a section of 'The Cross of Christ' (this being the second time, I have tried to get you to see sense, and retract your unsupported, and false accusations ...........( continues after quote)

rob.

Here is something for you to chew on, while you are preparing to support your statements. (or retract them )

Anti-Jew or anti-Semite?

It is sometimes said that the Gospel of John is anti-Jewish without being anti-Semitic, and there is reason to make such a distinction. Modern anti-Semitism is racist in that it falsely views Jewishness as a racial rather than an historic religious or cultural identity. Thus the Nazis drew a distinction between Aryan and Jewish racial types and did not regard conversion to Christianity as a way of divesting one's self of Jewishness. Certainly the Gospel of John is not anti-Semitic in this sense for this sort of racial anti-Semitism emerged only in modern times. Yet one must face the question of whether or not the Gospel of John is anti-Jewish, and, if so, what does its anti-Jewishness mean for Judaism and Christianity? Does the Gospel, rightly understood, promote anti-Semitism?


It is all too easy to read later religious developments and hostility back into the Gospel of John, for enough mutual hostility and rejection are reflected there already. To take a prime example, the Gospel of John seems to be thoroughly supersessionist, as is the Epistle to the Hebrews, for it anticipates the displacement of Jews as God's people by Christians and appropriates the Jewish scripture as its own (5:39,45-47). Moreover, "the Jews" themselves disavow the lordship of God by avowing that they have no king but Caesar (19:15) just before Pilate hands Jesus over to them for crucifixion. Interestingly enough, however, it is clear from the Gospel of John itself that Jesus was put to death by a detail of Roman soldiers (19:23-25; cf. 18:3), not by the Jews (who in 19:21-22 seem to be distinguished from the soldiers who appear in the next paragraph). Yet John leaves the impression that "the Jews" did Jesus in.


Although "Jews" (Ioudaioi) is characteristically, though not always, a term of opprobrium in the Fourth Gospel, "Israel" and "Israelite" uniformly appear in a positive sense. Nathanael, Jesus' disciple to be, is "truly an Israelite" (1:47), and John the Baptist's mission is to reveal Jesus as the Christ to Israel (1:31). Jesus himself is the king of Israel (1:49; 12:13). Moreover, the evangelist knows quite well that Jesus is a Jew, for the Samaritan woman identifies him as such (4:9), while Jesus himself will say to her, "Salvation is of the Jews" (4:22). Although Nicodemus proves woefully ignorant, the fact that he was a teacher of Israel means that he should have been prepared to understand Jesus (3:10). "Israel" and "Israelite," the designations preferred by the Jews themselves, remain entirely positive terms. Perhaps John sees the church as the true Israel and the replacement of fallen Israel, but, as we have already observed, he does not express himself in these terms.


Anti-Semitism and the Gospel of John
by
D. Moody Smith
(George Washington Ivey Professor Emeritus of New Testament)

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

From: I Am A God, I Am A Goddess ? Post #24

(continued)................ Which by the way only adds to the existing hostility between Christians and Jews in our world, which I find rather sad, as you are clearly able to read, reason and think, and make the effort to do a proper exegesis of Scripture. I hope that this will go some way towards 'changing your heart (the classical Hebrew rendering of that word)' and discourage you from coming dangerously close to what I am beginning to understand now, amounts to the equivalent of trampling on the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

'This blaming of the Jewish people for the crucifixion of Jesus is extremely unfashionable today. Indeed, if it is used as a justification for slandering and persecuting the Jews ( as it has been in the past ), or for anti-semetism, it is absolutely defensible. The way to avoid anti-semetic prejudice, however, is not to pretend that the Jews were innocent, but, having admitted their guilt, to add that others shared in it. This was how the apostles saw it. Herod and Pilate, Gentiles and Jews, they said, had together 'conspired' against Jesus ( Acts 4:27 ).

More important still, we ourselves are also guilty. If we were in their place, we would have done what they did. Indeed, we have done it. For whenever we turn away from Christ, we 'are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace' ( Hebrews 6:6 ). We too sacrifice Jesus to our greed like Judas, to our envy like the priests, to our ambition like Pilate. 'Were you there when they crucified my Lord?' the old negro spiritual asks. And we must answer, 'Yes, we were there.' Not as spectators only but as participants, guilty participants, plotting, scheming, betraying, bargaining and handing him over to be crucified. We may try to wash our hands of responsiblity like Pilate. But our attempt will be as futile as his. For these is blood on our hands. Before we can begin to see the cross as something done for us (leading us to faith and worship), we have to see it as something done by us (leading us to repentance). Indeed, 'only the man who is prepared to own his share of the guilt of the cross', wrote Canon Peter Green, 'may claim his share of its grace'. (Watchers by the Cross. pg. 17)

From: The Cross of Christ by JWR Stott. (Why Did Christ die? pg.59 and 60)

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[robertb]

As you choke on the simple yes or no question I ask, there is really not much more to say on the matter.