Western Empire -- the “willful king”? (for futurists ONLY)

[seanD]

First of all please get it out of your head that “antichrist” is one monolithic figure. There are many antichrists and many different characters in Rev and other places that are antichrists, and seem to serve different roles. The Beast and the false prophet for example are obviously different characters, though they work in conjunction. Personally, I don’t believe “the willful king” is related to the Beast or the false prophet, but that’s just my interpretation, and that interpretation could certainly be wrong. The reason I don’t think the US is related to the Beast of Rev is because of the US’s imperialistic sovereignty with both its military and its currency. I would imagine they need to be taken out in order for a global regime (the Beast) to emerge in its place. In saying that, I thought the correlations in Dan 11 to the Western empire were intriguing.

11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.”

The attacks on Iraq, drone bombing in Pakistan, military actions in Africa, Europe, and other parts of the middle east and Asia without any global consensus is a king doing according as he pleases. Read “Project for a New American Century” and you will see this audacity and self-exaltation of American global sovereign ideology clearly expressed.

11:37 “He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all.”

Though the debate about whether the founding fathers were Christian or not rages on, we can agree that the founding fathers were not atheists, and for the most part, though many of them did shun the religious establishment (much like many of us do today), they did regard the God of the bible. Today, this has drastically changed, where you can no longer even mention the name God in most government institutions, and is still drastically progressing with talks of removing holidays and any and all concepts of God in American ideology. The military private contractors that are powered by the US defense are corrupt to the core and have no American allegiances or values at all and are often cited in the news as committing war crimes and heinous acts against the foreign civilians. Today, most presidents hide behind the cloak of "God" because it’s the political thing to do.

11:38 “But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures.”

"Fortresses" = ma`owz, the God of “strongholds” or “defense.” The US has over 700 military installations in countries around the world. The list is here. The US military industrial complex is a multi-billion dollar corporation of literally hundreds of private contractors. The list is here. Global imperialism and military invasions and interventions of other nations and countries I would imagine was not something the founding fathers had in mind. Though BUsh was classified as a warmonger, most people are also unaware that Obama has actually quietly expanded military invasions and interventions and redefined the term “warmonger”…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060304965.html

11:39 “He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.”

This one intrigued me the most, and is associated with verse 38. Since the US military industrial complex is now chiefly made up of private corporations, many of its employees come from all over the world. “With help of a foreign god” could either mean the collaboration of the UN and NATO or these private global corporations made up of foreign bodies, or both. If you want a detail view of how contractors operate, this is a good article…

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...warriors/faqs/

“Parcel out the land for a price” could simply mean raping and pillaging the countries it invades of its resources -- i.e. oil and lithium in Afghanistan, or looting and stealing from the civilians (here). Private contractors like Blackwater, Haliburton, CACI, Dyncorp also practically serve as military gatekeepers in these countries and have little to no accountability to US authority, which interferes with the foreign country’s sovereignty.


Maybe this is the case, maybe it isn’t, just musings about the correlations. Nothing to get that personal and all up in arms about.

[seanD]

Another thing I found intriguing...

11:39 “He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.”

Nothing could be further from the truth in American foreign policy. We just made a multi-billion dollar defense deal with Saudi Arabia, and if anything, they in fact have more ties to 911 than Iraq ever did. We actually supported and built up Hussein as long as he was willing to play ball. Once he thumped his nose, that was it. We support dictators, drug dealers, terrorist organizations and countries as long as they play ball ("acknowledge" us). The moment they go sovereign, it's over with.

[MegaHertz]

First of all please get it out of your head that “antichrist” is one monolithic figure.

Okay, gone, an anti-christ is anybody who is doing things that are in violation of the two Laws Jesus left us, that would include false Christians also. They worship many things that end up having rewards based on power, fame or fortune. At the moment they would seem to belong to the group that is outside the ones described in Romans 13. If the Governments act within the narrow margins it is given they are within the Law, if they start to abuse those they are said to become greedy dogs and God treats them like that. In the events that Revelation gives us the main body of the group called anti-christ(s) are the 10 men that receive kingdoms after meeting with the Beast from the Pit for just one hour. The Beast starts his allotted time 42 months (1260 days) before Christ's return and the 10 men will be 'hired' at that time. The clay toes are those 10 men and the iron is fallen angels, Satan is the first king of the iron and he is the one that releases the Beast in the 5th trump. That fallen angel is being revived from a place he was put during the flood in Noah's days.

Those 10 men control all the things that would eventually be the mark of the beast. For the mark to be 'official' Satan has to have a temple in Jerusalem and have a throne there also in order to be worshiped as being God. Being worshiped by the 10 men is a worship baed of rear of losing a war against them. Satan gives them rewards for their support and when the two witnesses are dead it is merchants that are there and they are the ones who make it to the mountains in time to see Satan's Babylon being melted like Sodom was.

There are many antichrists and many different characters in Rev and other places that are antichrists, and seem to serve different roles.

For the human armies (as defined by the list given in Jer:25) they have their weapons of war in Israel when Satan has killed the two witnesses. On the day they are called back to life the 7th trump sounds and that involves all 7 vials to be poured out by the time evening arrives. The dead will all be dead, not just in Jerusalem but throughout the world. All those from mankind would have been in support of the beast in some respect and 2/3 of everybody is killed. All those would be considered to be anti-christ. Defined as a sinner (which we all quality for) who has not repented their sins.

The Beast and the false prophet for example are obviously different characters, though they work in conjunction.

The Beast with the head wound is angelic, just like Satan, the wound was being put into the pit during Noah's flood. The wound is healed when he becomes the 8th king (was, is not, will be again). If the false prophet is a man then he is best described in Da:7 as the one who overthrows 3 of 10 kings (the same ones in Revelation just above). I tend to think (not many references)he is angelic just because he goes straight to the lake and the armies of men are sent to hell for 1,000 years instead.

Personally, I don’t believe “the willful king” is related to the Beast or the false prophet, but that’s just my interpretation, and that interpretation could certainly be wrong.

The north and south kings should be Satan and the Beast from the pit. The one that is Satan should be the one that has a daughter who is the Harlot of Revelation and the descriptions can be applied to Israel and the temple. This is the group that is called 'blind Jews' in the NT and they do not play a role for the whole period that is 3 1/2 years long as far as Satan being the cause of 'woe'. The 4 fallen angels have a time of 1110 days after they have been manifested into an army of 200M horsemen just as described. I hesitate to say anything more as it is 'unknown territory'.

The reason I don’t think the US is related to the Beast of Rev is because of the US’s imperialistic sovereignty with both its military and its currency.

If those kingdoms are given away in one hour it is a back-room deal. When God judges the world everybody is there, no person is exempt let alone a Nation or two. This verse can be applied to who is in control for the two woes that are the 5th and 6th trumps. In a simple and quick geography lesson Satan is given 1/4 of the Earth and Satan will say I will take all the land area.

Re:6:7:
And when he had opened the fourth seal,
I heard the voice of the fourth beast say,
Come and see.
Re:6:8:
And I looked,
and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

I would imagine they need to be taken out in order for a global regime (the Beast) to emerge in its place.

No the leaders want to avoid death and Satan will offer them very great rewards if they help/ignore certain things that God had put them in charge of. They are the red sword of the 2nd seal and they fight many battles against themselves as part of Satan and the Beast running the battles described in Da:11. They are the kings that are sitting at the same table. Again it is not a subject that is easy to find material on,

In saying that, I thought the correlations in Dan 11 to the Western empire were intriguing.

Not just the west, all nations get to be there. The surviving remnant of the Nations of Zec:14 is from all the Nations it is individuals rather than a few Nations that are saved.

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Jer:25:27:
Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel;
Drink ye,
and be drunken,
and spue,
and fall,
and rise no more,
because of the sword which I will send among you.
Jer:25:28:
And it shall be,
if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink,
then shalt thou say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Ye shall certainly drink.
Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer:25:30:
Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words,
and say unto them,
The LORD shall roar from on high,
and utter his voice from his holy habitation;
he shall mightily roar upon his habitation;
he shall give a shout,
as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.

((The leaders of the Nations fall into corruption via Satan's deception.))

Jer:25:35:
And the shepherds shall have no way to flee,
nor the principal of the flock to escape.
Jer:25:36:
A voice of the cry of the shepherds,
and an howling of the principal of the flock,
shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture.
Jer:25:37:
And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Perhaps I should stop here, lol, just in case you have some comments, then I will post the rest of my reply.

[seanD]

Another thing I found intriguing...

11:39 “He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.”

Nothing could be further from the truth in American foreign policy. We just made a multi-billion dollar defense deal with Saudi Arabia, and if anything, they in fact have more ties to 911 than Iraq ever did. We actually supported and built up Hussein as long as he was willing to play ball. Once he thumped his nose, that was it. We support dictators, drug dealers, terrorist organizations and countries as long as they play ball ("acknowledge" us). The moment they go sovereign, it's over with.

Nothing could be CLOSER to the truth.


Most hardcore conservative Christians could NEVER get themselves to agree with this interpretation based on political principles alone. But if the OP interpretation is correct, then it probably should come as no surprise why the whole mantra of US patriotism and imperialistic pride is predominantly heralded under the cloak of Christian conservatism, whereas liberals -- the "pinko commies" -- are more inclined to question America's foreign actions and policies. If I were Satan and wanted to keep this interpretation under wraps, which group would I deceive the most to keep this interpretation covert?

[MegaHertz]

All the current posturing and wars are part of what the Bible calls the 'same old, same old. Earth gets actively involved in the one incident before the 1st trump sounds. The first 4 could take as little as one day, the next two take 5 months and 37 months respectively.

In that 37 month period 1/3 of mankind is supposed to be killed, at the end of that time 2/3 of the remainder are supposed to be killed in less than one day.

There is no way we could do that and have any inhabitable land left, let alone the Dead Sea being made into a fresh water lake.

A Holy War has to be funded by false Christians, nobody likes to make headlines about that fact. Acting out the prophecies is not going to 'make them happen'. If anything they should be acting out creating an extension of the New Earth verses.

[seanD]

All the current posturing and wars are part of what the Bible calls the 'same old, same old. Earth gets actively involved in the one incident before the 1st trump sounds. The first 4 could take as little as one day, the next two take 5 months and 37 months respectively.

In that 37 month period 1/3 of mankind is supposed to be killed, at the end of that time 2/3 of the remainder are supposed to be killed in less than one day.

There is no way we could do that and have any inhabitable land left, let alone the Dead Sea being made into a fresh water lake.

A Holy War has to be funded by false Christians, nobody likes to make headlines about that fact. Acting out the prophecies is not going to 'make them happen'. If anything they should be acting out creating an extension of the New Earth verses.

I agree with the bottom of your post that it could be influenced politically, but influenced in a different way. I don’t believe there are actually Christian futurists intentionally funding all this to make it happen. I think that’s a myth and much too conspiratorial to believe. Besides, most ultra conservative political dipsies like Hagee certainly wouldn’t buy into the belief that good ole God blessed America was the evil “willful king” of Dan, especially if there's a republican in office. But if the interpretation of the OP is correct, then that whole gungho-patriotic-imperialistic-Americana ideology that we see expressed very strongly in circles of conservatism, is almost certainly a deception to steer Christians away from the true interpretation. That was my point before. This would make sense. If I’m Satan, and I want to keep people from the correct interpretation (assuming it’s correct), then I’m not really worried about secular liberals, who will undoubtedly question military actions and foreign policies of government much more so than conservatives, but certainly won’t concern themselves with this in scripture. Instead, I’m going to focus my deceptions on the biblical gatekeepers, the Christians themselves.

[MegaHertz]

I agree with the bottom of your post that it could be influenced politically, but influenced in a different way. I don’t believe there are actually Christian futurists intentionally funding all this to make it happen. I think that’s a myth and much too conspiratorial to believe. Besides, most ultra conservative political dipsies like Hagee certainly wouldn’t buy into the belief that good ole God blessed America was the evil “willful king” of Dan, especially if there's a republican in office. But if the interpretation of the OP is correct, then that whole gungho-patriotic-imperialistic-Americana ideology that we see expressed very strongly in circles of conservatism, is almost certainly a deception to steer Christians away from the true interpretation. That was my point before. This would make sense. If I’m Satan, and I want to keep people from the correct interpretation (assuming it’s correct), then I’m not really worried about secular liberals, who will undoubtedly question military actions and foreign policies of government much more so than conservatives, but certainly won’t concern themselves with this in scripture. Instead, I’m going to focus my deceptions on the biblical gatekeepers, the Christians themselves.

I'm in Canada and my freedoms exist until the PM calls Martial Law, no vote, no discussion, no delay. The last one that did replied "Just watch me" when asked if he would put the military in charge on internal affairs.

Promoting Iran as evil and part of the end-time forces of evil would sort of make them acting against the NT message.
http://wwwstatic.megavideo.com/mv_pl...jpg&v=ZG2SJ963
I could pick out several things in this vid that I believe are 'forcing the prophecies' in an attempt to justify their current support of political ideals.

If the end-times 10 men are given 'new kingdoms' why could it not cover political and commercial and religion. Those 10 men could be chosen for reasons other than being a leader of Nations as we recognize them. For example a 'horn' might represent a language rather than the voice of the people in a political area like the US.

At the moment I'm not sure she could be singled out as being a certain member of Da:11, as bad or 'fake' good one. The ones doing the battling might not be aware that it is just for show. The end result is to have people worship somebody as being the one true God of the Bible, most of the people will not have a clue that it is a deception.

The NT calls them the children of darkness and their fate is in the 7 vials of Re:16. For them that day comes like a shot out of the blue. The closest place is Jerusalem when the two witnesses come back to life and are lifted as high as the clouds. The people who see this hear some words and some repent and they head for the hills and only the fastest make it there alive and in the relative passage as long as they are in 'flight' they can be resurrected back for life for the 1,000 years.

However Satan and the Beast divide the armies the wars they cause can't last more than 3 1/2 years if you are going to stick to the times given in Revelation. That way the other places where a time is specified they can remain just that way, one hour is 60 minutes, one day is a day and night with evening being the 1st hour of the new day. Judgment Day doesn't have to be in that same situation although, 1,000 years that starts after the 7th trump sounds is the full number of nights and days.

[seanD]

Promoting Iran as evil and part of the end-time forces of evil would sort of make them acting against the NT message.
http://wwwstatic.megavideo.com/mv_pl...jpg&v=ZG2SJ963
I could pick out several things in this vid that I believe are 'forcing the prophecies' in an attempt to justify their current support of political ideals.

The only thing I saw wrong with the film was the political association with religion. I didn’t necessarily agree with everything they believe, but I saw Christians following the commands of Christ to watch and be ready. Where Christianity meets politics is where the alliance gets unholy and deceptive IMO. And I don’t believe you can “force” prophecy to happen. It’s going to happen regardless. The question becomes whose interpretation is correct. If the OP interpretation is correct, then the politics of conservatism and the hyper-pro-American ideology that comes with it is indeed a deception.

[MegaHertz]

If the OP interpretation is correct, then the politics of conservatism and the hyper-pro-American ideology that comes with it is indeed a deception.

That can come about without events being prophecy unfolding. Why would today's saber rattling and wars (over the last 100 years) be anything but 'normal' for a period of time where such things are supposed to happen? A period of time that is 'mild compared to the events described in the trumps.

How could America of any Nation with a military force be exempt from being part of 'they' in this verse?

Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

Satan's deception is going to involve fake wars between Satan and the Beast if it turns out they are the south and north kings of Da:11. That part is fairly easy to establish, especially the Beast being the 8th king and being in power when the 7th trump sounds. Two woes have passed and those combined make up they term 'tribulation', the 3rd woe is the punishment of the wicked and it is called great tribulation.

[seanD]

How could America of any Nation with a military force be exempt from being part of 'they' in this verse?

Re:13:4:
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:
and they worshipped the beast,
saying,
Who is like unto the beast?
who is able to make war with him?

I put prophecy in the perspective of real time events. Unless you think the return of Christ is extremely imminent, the US will not be associated with the Beast. The US and it's currency has two years tops economically-wise. This may even come much sooner. There is currently a world currency war between China/Japan/US. These are our creditors. All they have to do is get PO'd enough to dump their T-bonds and it's over with for the US in an instant. If the OP interpretation is correct, there will likely be a conventional world war before this happens.

[MegaHertz]

I put prophecy in the perspective of real time events. Unless you think the return of Christ is extremely imminent, the US will not be associated with the Beast. The US and it's currency has two years tops economically-wise. This may even come much sooner. There is currently a world currency war between China/Japan/US. These are our creditors. All they have to do is get PO'd enough to dump their T-bonds and it's over with for the US in an instant. If the OP interpretation is correct, there will likely be a conventional world war before this happens.

Then it is a war that has human interests at heart. If I was to build a great city and name it Babylon and then destroy it in one hour with fire from above that does not mean I have fulfilled any Bible prophecy, even though I may claim it to be.

We don't just pick 'enemies' we pick them and then apply their name to the 'evil ones' in the Bible. Today it is Islam with Iran being the one wearing the bullseye that the West uses. A few decades ago it was the USSR. Once Islam is not a threat who is next or once we kill them all why would we still need weapons of war. That will never happen, another excuse will be found to fight an even more expensive war over some real or imagined enemy.

It isn't like the world won't go on if the US goes into a depression that sees most of the lower classes end up on starvation alley, the elite will have escaped with all the loot, come back in a few 100 years and reclaim the land that is pretty much devoid of any people, let alone an advanced one.

In that vid did you notice the Rabbi near the very beginning denying that Christ existed? The wallets of the 'Christians' should have closed rather than being opened wider. The naming of who the main satanic country is means that the one doing the accusing is the one who is going to be judged as playing God. The track record of our past bears that truth up all too well. Our appearance is more akin to the arrival of the angel of death than it is to someone who bring relief from the sorrows this world dishes out.

I've given about all I have an opinion on as to who the ones mentioned are. The 4 fallen angels could be the False Prophet since it is sent to the lake rather than hell.

Da;7 has some info of the requirements of the 4th beast and Da;2 specifies 10 toes, which I take to be the 10 men that the Beast gives kingdoms to in Revelation. How does America fit into those places?

If a war for finances is needed the Rothschild Banks have some $500T sitting in their petty cash account. The world debt is about $60T . . . . . do the math. Madagascar was the 2nd choice for a sanctuary, hope they and their 144,000 closest friends and their families 4 generations deep enjoy their new home. The new banking system should be based on the OT rules concerning usury where all Gentiles are treated as being a member of the tribes. The 'gentiles' that can be owed and pay interest would be the corporations that exist where the workers are also the owners and as such the ones cleaning the washrooms take home a cheque that is equal in size. The line between interest free and interest bearing loans to people is based on if they are richer than the bankers. They keep a certain amount as wages and if another person makes less their personal loans are interest free and if a person makes more than a banker then he pays interest on his loan.

Bankers wages fluctuate with the economy, in good years it rises, in drought and famine years it decreases. A bank might get 3% (no profit) of $100 and the $97 stays in circulation, forever.

If 97% are docile about 3% having almost all of the money then they might actually deserve what they are enduring lol. That is self-abuse that is not a divine punishment as there are verses that warn of such practices.

[seanD]

So in regards to the OP, is that an 'agree' or 'disagree?' It's really hard to tell from some of your posts.

[MegaHertz]

So in regards to the OP, is that an 'agree' or 'disagree?' It's really hard to tell from some of your posts.

"The attacks on Iraq, drone bombing in Pakistan, military actions in Africa, Europe, and other parts of the middle east and Asia without any global consensus is a king doing according as he pleases. Read “Project for a New American Century” and you will see this audacity and self-exaltation of American global sovereign ideology clearly expressed."

Not part of any prophecy other than there will be wars and rumors of wars before the end-time prophecy begins to unfold, once it does it is over in less that 4 years.

[seanD]

Gotcha.

[MegaHertz]

Gotcha.

If there is no current connection to the US in prophecy concerning current events then how would you exclude them from being part of the 10 Kingdoms that the Beast from the Pit creates when he selects the 10 men in Revelation?

Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:
and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
Jer:25:27:
Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel;
Drink ye,
and be drunken,
and spue,
and fall,
and rise no more,
because of the sword which I will send among you.
Jer:25:28:
And it shall be,
if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink,
then shalt thou say unto them,
Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
Ye shall certainly drink.
Jer:25:29:
For,
lo,
I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name,
and should ye be utterly unpunished?
Ye shall not be unpunished:
for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jer:25:30:
Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words,
and say unto them,
The LORD shall roar from on high,
and utter his voice from his holy habitation;
he shall mightily roar upon his habitation;
he shall give a shout,
as they that tread the grapes,
against all the inhabitants of the earth.

That would be the 7th trump of Revelation:11 and it is also in these verses below.

Eze:39:14:
And they shall sever out men of continual employment,
passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth,
to cleanse it:
after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze:39:15:
And the passengers that pass through the land,
when any seeth a man's bone,
then shall he set up a sign by it,
till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamon-gog.