Western Empire -- the “willful king”? (for futurists ONLY)

[seanD]

If there is no current connection to the US in prophecy concerning current events then how would you exclude them from being part of the 10 Kingdoms that the Beast from the Pit creates when he selects the 10 men in Revelation?

How? I explained in post #10. Understanding eschatology requires an understanding of the current geopolitical situation. It seems we're talking past each other at this point.

The US is crumbling, both morally and economically, and on its way out as a world empire. It will either turn into a third world police state, or end up like Africa. When you understand how the Fractional Reserve banking system works, understand how Quantitative Easing works, understand what the derivative market is and how it works, understand how utterly corrupt this system is on top of that, then you know how to recognize the signs when this particular house of cards economic system is about to collapse, thus you have no other conclusion of what the US will be reduced to. If you don't understand these concepts, then there's no point discussing this in terms of eschatology.

Because of the bond market bubble, I'm guessing the collapse will happen hard, within the next two years at best, and when a global giant like the US collapses economically, this will have a major ripple effect throughout the world. It will undoubtedly create a vacuum, the repercussions of which I'm uncertain, but something most certainly will move in its place.

[MegaHertz]

Understanding eschatology requires an understanding of the current geopolitical situation. It seems we're talking past each other at this point.

Which comes first, the understanding the Bible promotes or the political climate and then apply that to the prophecies?

If the Bibles a there will be a 'bad guy' how does it follow that Iran can be made into being promoted as being that 'bad guy'. Or any other nation or individual for that matter. There is no verse or passage that allows a christian to do that without making themselves into a false Christian. It is tantamount to fear mongering and that is in the same class as whore-mongering in this verse.

Eph:5:5:
For this ye know,
that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person,
nor covetous man,
who is an idolater,
hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1Tm:1:10:
For whoremongers,
for them that defile themselves with mankind,
for menstealers,
for liars,
for perjured persons,
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Your prediction of a financial meltdown could well be true, that being said Jerusalem is not in North America so if we collapse into financial ruin it will not include all the weapons of war we have, the next one to be the superpower will have this items and Jerusalem will still have events it must endure before the return.

[seanD]

Which comes first, the understanding the Bible promotes or the political climate and then apply that to the prophecies?

If in terms of "understanding what the bible promotes" you're referring specifically to prophecy, then the latter. Prophecy is not a crystal ball that allows us to predict the future in accurate detail. IMO, prophecy is like pieces to a puzzle. When we work on a puzzle, it helps when we have an image of the puzzle to use as a reference. Prophecies are the pieces and world events are like that image. As the events occur, we get a clearer and clearer understanding of the prophecies and its overall scope in particular. Of course, we can always jump the gun, but that's okay, it's only natural, as long as there's no real harm to ourselves or others as a result.

I made a thread about that here.

If the Bibles a there will be a 'bad guy' how does it follow that Iran can be made into being promoted as being that 'bad guy'. Or any other nation or individual for that matter. There is no verse or passage that allows a christian to do that without making themselves into a false Christian. It is tantamount to fear mongering and that is in the same class as whore-mongering in this verse.

Eph:5:5:
For this ye know,
that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person,
nor covetous man,
who is an idolater,
hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1Tm:1:10:
For whoremongers,
for them that defile themselves with mankind,
for menstealers,
for liars,
for perjured persons,
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Your prediction of a financial meltdown could well be true, that being said Jerusalem is not in North America so if we collapse into financial ruin it will not include all the weapons of war we have, the next one to be the superpower will have this items and Jerusalem will still have events it must endure before the return.

Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're gonna come in here and get all hostile and call me names then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know why you're bring up Iran in this discussion. I said nothing about Iran, especially anything about them being a "bad guy." You're making the mistake of lumping me into what other fundamentalists dipsies claim or believe. In regards to the economy, you'll be wiping the egg off your face to be sure, unfortunately it's nothing I'll be gloating about because it will be horrible. My "prediction" about a financial meltdown is not a prediction. It's a fact. You think it's a prediction only because you're ignorant of how the western monetary system works, how fiat currencies work in general in relation to global activities, or your in denial about it out of fear, or both. Unfortunately you're one among millions of others who are totally oblivious to this fact. I'm no expert, I've just been doing extensive research on this recently, nothing that anyone else can't learn, and I'm certainly not the only one who understands how it works and knows that the collapse is imminent.

[MegaHertz]

Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree. If you're gonna come in here and get all hostile and call me names then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know why you're bring up Iran in this discussion. I said nothing about Iran, especially anything about them being a "bad guy." You're making the mistake of lumping me into what other fundamentalists dipsies claim or believe. In regards to the economy, you'll be wiping the egg off your face to be sure, unfortunately it's nothing I'll be gloating about because it will be horrible. My "prediction" about a financial meltdown is not a prediction. It's a fact. You think it's a prediction only because you're ignorant of how the western monetary system works, how fiat currencies work in general in relation to global activities, or your in denial about it out of fear, or both. Unfortunately you're one among millions of others who are totally oblivious to this fact. I'm no expert, I've just been doing extensive research on this recently, nothing that anyone else can't learn, and I'm certainly not the only one who understands how it works and knows that the collapse is imminent.

I'm not quite sure where I called you any names. If you aren't part of the crowd that like to pin the AC identity on people/nations the good for you, that is the group I said was just making trouble for themselves.

I actually am quite aware of how the passage of the Fed bill in 1913 made events of today possible, the Money Master is a bit dated and quite long but it covers all the aspects. Add Admiralty Law into the mix and that is how we got to where we are today in North America. The rest of the world would survive the crash of the dollar. The only event of consequence is the Banks would have an even tighter grip on who has money and who is without.

All that can take place without any prophecies being involved, you seem quite determined that events take place before that event happens, so be it.

[seanD]

All that can take place without any prophecies being involved, you seem quite determined that events take place before that event happens, so be it.

I made it crystal clear in the OP that my interpretation of the "willful king," the main topic, is an interpretation that could be wrong. What I argued about the economy is on a whole different plane. The state of the monetary system is a fact. My interpretation of the willful king is not.

I only brought up the sub-topic of the economy to point out where I disagree with you about its relation to the Beast, or at least being the prime architect based on the definition we're given in Revelation. The US is not part of any global union. The US is sovereign in its nature. The US takes global military initiation in spite of any global system of law or the UN. Any cooperation expressed between them is just meaningless formality. The UN and NATO follow its lead. But the US will soon be powerless to initiate these activities, much less able to initiate any sort of global commerce system of trade.

We have different interpretations. Big deal. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[MegaHertz]

I made it crystal clear in the OP that my interpretation of the "willful king," the main topic, is an interpretation that could be wrong. What I argued about the economy is on a whole different plane. The state of the monetary system is a fact. My interpretation of the willful king is not.

Perhaps that is where I got lost as to what your post was promoting. Somehow I got the impression that you were promoting the US as having a set role in the end-time prophecies and they had to start quite quickly because the US financial might reduce them (you) from being a world power within a few years.

I only brought up the sub-topic of the economy to point out where I disagree with you about its relation to the Beast, or at least being the prime architect based on the definition we're given in Revelation.

I have to admit I don't understand this point very well. I was under the impression that Satan and the Beast from the Pit are former angels. They would put various Nations into their service. These days the US has the power to make other Nations go along with their desires or embargoes and coups are implemented. Using the US dollar certainly removes it from being sovereign and not involved in the international affairs at the highest of levels. If not for the debt to the international bankers (same group that has had control for the last 300 years) the US would be the international banker. That would also seem to mean the bankers control if America sinks or swims, rather than Bible prophecy.

The US is not part of any global union. The US is sovereign in its nature. The US takes global military initiation in spite of any global system of law or the UN. Any cooperation expressed between them is just meaningless formality.

I touched on this a bit above. Prior to 1950 the citizens were the biggest hurdle to being involved in foreign wars. Since that the cold war allowed for coups orchestrated by small groups paying off a few inside the foreign country. That would be done simply to help US Corporations gain the advantage of exploiting the natural resources.

Would that cover Gulf I as that got co-operation after only a few bad lies? I assume there was a lot of back-room arm-bending going on.

The UN and NATO follow its lead. But the US will soon be powerless to initiate these activities, much less able to initiate any sort of global commerce system of trade.

I have seen Canada bend to the will of the US and I am sure we are not the only ones to do so. Again this is were I am losing the jest of this thread, the global commerce trade would not come to a stanstill just because the American currency 'failed'. In the past any fall was allowed to crash so hard so the ones who got out early could buy up the 'failed companies' for pennies on the dollar. It is the best way to wipe out the list called shareholders, the company assets always hold their own value. The depressions in the 1920'2 to 1930's ran along those lines, a lot of people lost everything that had any value, a very few acquired all that same wealth or rock bottom price. The US wasn't in control of those events, it was the work of the international bankers.

We have different interpretations. Big deal. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

That's fine, like you say not a big deal. I'm still not sure I understand what you mean by the US and the willful king and how that works or how it doesn't work. That should show you that I don't even have a handle on which it is you are promoting.

If it seems like I'm hounding you please don't reply and we can let this thread go down the rabbit-hole.

[seanD]

Forget about the Beast, that's a sub-topic we disagree on. The topic is about Dan 11:36 willful king. Since you disagree with my interpretation, that's fine. The discussion need not go on any further.

[MegaHertz]

Since you disagree with my interpretation, that's fine. The discussion need not go on any further.

Okay, I hope you get some responses from other futurists.
Later.

[seanD]

Okay, I hope you get some responses from other futurists.
Later.

Doubt it. Most of them I would guess are dead set on one monolithic antichrist figure -- the willful king, the man of lawlessness, the white horse conqueror, the beast -- are one and the same figure. But that's okay. We'll see how this plays out.

[seanD]

The activity in the middle east is becoming increasingly interesting to me in regards to my theory here. Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia (Africa) is making a US/NATO intervention in these countries quite plausible. Another interesting thing to me is that if my theory turns out to be true, "the glorious holy mountain" is most likely a reference to Saudi Arabia (I believe Mt Sinai actually sits in Midian, Northwest Saudi Arabia, not the Sinai Peninsula), and the two seas would conceivably be the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. Will be interesting to see what develops.

[Truth Files]

Brief comment to the theme of this thread:

The first beast of Revelation is a fallen angelic [so it the second] .... they are both instruments of Satan [2Thessalonians 2:9]

The second [false prophet] will lead the religious cult [Islam .... Shiite and Sunni] of the first through two religious cleric types [two horns]

A religion of "peace" [lamb] speaking like a dragon [Satan]

The first beast, Abaddon-Apollyon [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-5; 17:8-14] will manifest in the human little horn of Daniel's visions .... [7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 11:36-45; 12:7]

This beast will rule the Middle East again [5 of his past assignments by Satan have fallen .... before the 1st century] with 10 other [horns] human leaders [kings]

The other "little horn" of Daniel's visions as become the beast in Revelation's unfolding

It is this beast in the little horn who will confederate the Islamic Middle East and lead the other 10 kings

These will hate the "great city" of western civilization and destroy it in one day

This will occur at the beginning of the coming time of the end of this present age and the "great city" will no longer be a obstacle in the course of the ambitions of Satan to rule the earth

If you are looking for the USA in prophecy, here it is

Suggested scriptures:

[Revelation 8:2-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

[seanD]

The first beast of Revelation is a fallen angelic

I agree with this. Everything else after that you lost me.

So your belief is that the willful king of Dan 11 is a Muslim?

[Truth Files]

He is called the "Assyrian" in Micah 5:5-6

And yes, this beast in the human little horn will confederate the Islamic Middle East and form his 7th divided kingdom of iron and clay

10 other kings there will rule with him

This king of the northern Middle East will rise at the time of the end of this present age and we may be observing the setting up of the conditions necessary for this to take place today

I would suggest that if this picture is outside of your understanding as I have described in the above posting that you study the scriptures given and think about them

[seanD]

He is called the "Assyrian" in Micah 5:5-6

And yes, this beast in the human little horn will confederate the Islamic Middle East and form his 7th divided kingdom of iron and clay

10 other kings there will rule with him

This king of the northern Middle East will rise at the time of the end of this present age and we may be observing the setting up of the conditions necessary for this to take place today

I would suggest that if this picture is outside of your understanding as I have described in the above posting that you study the scriptures given and think about them

The problem is that you're assuming all these characters in scripture are the same. There's no reason to assume this when in many cases their descriptions, purposes, and actions are starkly different. This is why I have issue with futurists who proclaim "the antichrist" when in fact there are different antichrists with many different functions and descriptions in scripture. For example, many furturists assume the beast of Dan and the beast of Rev is the same beast when in fact there is no reason to assume this, since not only are the descriptions of the horns starkly different (Dan’s beast has 11 horns, counting the little horn, which gets cut down to only 8, and the horn wars with the saints in Dan, whereas the beast itself wars with the saints in Rev), but the only thing tying the two together is an unproven theory about Daniel’s 70th week, which, even if the theory were true (which probably isn't), still doesn’t support the Dan/Rev beast connection because of the discrepancies between the two. You're making the same assumptions with these scriptural references when in many cases the descriptions don't support your case.

[Truth Files]

Sorry, I see a much different picture than what you are suggesting

So you will just have to take your issue with my view of the future related to Bible prophecy

Time will tell regarding the unfulfilled portion of the prophetic scriptures which I believe are all scheduled for the coming "time of the end" still pending

I typically do not debate prophetic issues because of the subjectivity to interpretation .... there are many and only one comprehensive view can be correct

Some understand ..... and some do not

If there are reasonable questions regarding my interpretations I will respond

If not .... there is really no need to discuss

I share my views on public forums and those who read them must decide for themselves