The Divine Council

[Bill the Cat]

Obedience to their Father in Heaven.

So, they were obedient in order to get their godhood, yet were capable of disobedience in judging falsely? And is obedience to the Father all that is necessary to attain godhood?

And if they were disobedient, yet still called gods, why did they not lose their godhood?

http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=7994

Ostler appeals to B. H. Roberts’s generic idea of God from The Mormon Doctrine of Deity,7 saying that if “God” is seen as a title, it is at least logically possible that a person called God could cease to be God, “though the person may continue to exist” (1:109)

© source where applicable

[OtherCheek]

So, they were obedient in order to get their godhood, yet were capable of disobedience in judging falsely?

Exactly. Just like you are obedient for a while, but then you may be disobedient--having free will and all.

And is obedience to the Father all that is necessary to attain godhood?

Pretty much. Obedience, we believe, is the first law of heaven. But there are degrees of obedience, and to become like the Father, we must be obedient in all things to his will.

And if they were disobedient, yet still called gods, why did they not lose their godhood?

dunno. Probably has something to do with the lower case "g". Meaning they were not Gods but gods.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=7994

Ostler appeals to B. H. Roberts’s generic idea of God from The Mormon Doctrine of Deity,7 saying that if “God” is seen as a title, it is at least logically possible that a person called God could cease to be God, “though the person may continue to exist” (1:109)

© source where applicable

Yep. I would probably put a lower case "g" somewhere in there, but that sounds right to me.

[Bill the Cat]

Exactly. Just like you are obedient for a while, but then you may be disobedient--having free will and all.

So any God can disobey their greater god, yet still be called a god?

Pretty much. Obedience, we believe, is the first law of heaven. But there are degrees of obedience, and to become like the Father, we must be obedient in all things to his will.

So one can be a god, yet still be in need of further "becoming like Him"?

dunno. Probably has something to do with the lower case "g". Meaning they were not Gods but gods.

I didn't know you differentiated these... So what exactly makes one a "god"?

Yep. I would probably put a lower case "g" somewhere in there, but that sounds right to me.

How much disobedience does it take to lost the title? Has the Father ever disobeyed since he became a god?

[OtherCheek]

So any God can disobey their greater god, yet still be called a god?

I think you got the upper and lower case backwards. But at any rate, I think this all indicates that there are gods that are not yet perfect, and Gods who are perfect.

So one can be a god, yet still be in need of further "becoming like Him"?

It seems that way to me.

I didn't know you differentiated these... So what exactly makes one a "god"?

I don't know.

How much disobedience does it take to lost the title? Has the Father ever disobeyed since he became a god?

The Father is perfect. He obeys his own laws perfectly. So much so that he IS the personification of them, I would say.

I don't know "how much" quantitatively. All I know is that obedience leads one way, and disobedience the other.

[OneSizeFit]

I didn't know you differentiated these... So what exactly makes one a "god"?

The best translation of elohim, would be divine being(s). Beings above humanity, but not the "LORD your God" himself. Not God Most High (El Elyon).

Paul says all those who live in Christ will judge the angels in eternity (1 Corinthians 6:3), so one of the core teachings of Christianity is that humans will become divine beings through Christ. Far fetched?

[Sparko]

so what's to keep you or anyone else from rebelling against Heavenly Father once you are exalted?

What's to keep Heavenly Father from rebelling against his Father and turning evil?

[OneSizeFit]

so what's to keep you or anyone else from rebelling against Heavenly Father once you are exalted?

While not in the Mormon context, I have had similar questions, is there free will in Heaven, can a man rebel against Christ in the after life, whether in Heaven as a spirit or after the bodily resurrection?

The rebellion of Satan and his Legion implies it is possible to rebel and that there is free will throughout all of His creation.

[OneSizeFit]

The best translation of elohim, would be divine being(s). Beings above humanity, but not the "LORD your God" himself. Not God Most High (El Elyon).

Paul says all those who live in Christ will judge the angels in eternity (1 Corinthians 6:3), so one of the core teachings of Christianity is that humans will become divine beings through Christ. Far fetched?

Just to add, I think this is the same line of thinking Ignatius used when he wrote "For the Son of God became man, so that we might become God." He surely did not mean God Most High, but souls in Christ will be elevated to divine positions above the angels, the elohim of old.

[nrajeff]

so what's to keep you or anyone else from rebelling against Heavenly Father once you are exalted?
What's to keep Heavenly Father from rebelling against his Father and turning evil?

---By the time a person is exalted and given the powers that God has, that person has demonstrated that he/she would never abuse those powers. The process by which a person becomes like God and Jesus, purifies the person's character to the point that it's not in the person's NATURE to act immaturely or irresponsibly or immorally or unethically.

Or, as C.S. Lewis put it:

He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness....

[Bill the Cat]

I think you got the upper and lower case backwards. But at any rate, I think this all indicates that there are gods that are not yet perfect, and Gods who are perfect.

Imperfect, but divine? Wow...

It seems that way to me.

Wow... you have an interesting definition of "god" that seems to change at your need.

I don't know.

Interesting...

The Father is perfect. He obeys his own laws perfectly. So much so that he IS the personification of them, I would say.

Yet, you believe He COULD disobey it, correct?

I don't know "how much" quantitatively. All I know is that obedience leads one way, and disobedience the other.

But one CAN be disobedient and still be a god?

[Bill the Cat]

The best translation of elohim, would be divine being(s). Beings above humanity, but not the "LORD your God" himself. Not God Most High (El Elyon).

But Mormons believe that we are the same species as El Elyon and those divine beings in the divine council.

Paul says all those who live in Christ will judge the angels in eternity (1 Corinthians 6:3), so one of the core teachings of Christianity is that humans will become divine beings through Christ. Far fetched?

Only through Christ. Not in and of ourselves. Without Him, we would be nothing.

[Bill the Cat]

---By the time a person is exalted and given the powers that God has, that person has demonstrated that he/she would never abuse those powers. The process by which a person becomes like God and Jesus, purifies the person's character to the point that it's not in the person's NATURE to act immaturely or irresponsibly or immorally or unethically.

Or, as C.S. Lewis put it:

He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness....

Lewis meant that we will not have that light within us. It will merely be a reflection of the light within Christ. Therefore, we will not be independent gods on our own with our own worlds.


So what about you Jeff? What do you make of the gods in the council? Were they merely angelic beings in positions of authority, or were they exalted humans?

[Sparko]

While not in the Mormon context, I have had similar questions, is there free will in Heaven, can a man rebel against Christ in the after life, whether in Heaven as a spirit or after the bodily resurrection?

The rebellion of Satan and his Legion implies it is possible to rebel and that there is free will throughout all of His creation.

I had similar questions and asked my bible class teacher once. He said that he believes it is part of our submitting to God on earth. We are choosing of our own free will to submit ourselves to God, and giving up our free will to rebel in heaven. And part of the ability to not sin comes from us having experienced sin, and the consequences of sin firsthand during our lives on earth. So I don't think we will have the free will to sin in eternity. But it is because we willingly give that up in submission to God. I think the same happened with the Angels that did not rebel with Satan. I don't think they can sin either.

[Sparko]

---By the time a person is exalted and given the powers that God has, that person has demonstrated that he/she would never abuse those powers. The process by which a person becomes like God and Jesus, purifies the person's character to the point that it's not in the person's NATURE to act immaturely or irresponsibly or immorally or unethically.

Or, as C.S. Lewis put it:

He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness....

OK I can go with that. It is similar to what I said above.

But then that brings us back OC's claim that these "gods" in the divine council sinned against God. So how did they do that if they became Gods by being obedient to God and were exalted beings as you will be one day?

[OneSizeFit]

But Mormons believe that we are the same species as El Elyon and those divine beings in the divine council.

Oh, I actually didnt know that. I wonder what Mormons make out of the following.

"You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

Matthew 22:29-30

Only through Christ. Not in and of ourselves. Without Him, we would be nothing.

Yup.