Where does it say this?

[Dracula Girl]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

Thank you

[sylvius]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

Thank you

Where did you read that?

[sylvius]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

https://twitter.com/RabbiGinsburgh

In Hebrew, "fall" and "wonder" are cognate. By witnessing wonders in nature and in our lives we fall in love with our Creator.

"nafal" ("nun-pay-lamed" ) = to fall

"p'lay" ("pay-lamed-alef") = wonder.

Hey, now you see that English "play" is an Edenic!

Our's is a generation of relaxation. We're all tired. If you're tired you need to relax. It's time to game. The Torah is God's holy game.

Ha!
Matthew 17:24-27 !

{"pay" = mouth!)

[Tanakh Keeper]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

Thank you

I think you are talking about D e u t 13:1-6.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. 2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," 4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your G-d, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul. 5. You shall follow the Lord, your G-d, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. 6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your G-d Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your G-d, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

Basically, Torah is telling us that miracles should not be used as the means to determine whether a particular person is a prophet or not. The correct test to determine if a person is a valid prophet is their adherence to the words of the Torah. Valid prophets don't change the words of the Torah or tell us to worship gods that didn't appear to the Jewish people at Sinai.

[sylvius]

Basically, Torah is telling us that miracles should not be used as the means to determine whether a particular person is a prophet or not. The correct test to determine if a person is a valid prophet is their adherence to the words of the Torah. Valid prophets don't change the words of the Torah or tell us to worship gods that didn't appear to the Jewish people at Sinai.

That must be why Mark 8:11-12

And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

Sign = Greek "sèmeion" = Hebrew "nes".

"Nes" can also mean miracle (and also: flag, banner, pole.)

See:
http://www.balashon.com/2006/11/nes-and-nisayon.html
about the connection between nes נס - miracle and nisayon נסיון - test or trial.

-- asking for a sign - a nes - is a test - a nisayon --

The Messiah is of another order --
He is the resurrected one.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Please spare us your christian nonsense, sylvius. Anastasia wanted an answer according to Judaism. If she wanted a christian answer, she would have posted in a christian section.

[Salty]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

Where in the world did you read that? In my opinion, bringing all the Jews back to Israel and back to Orthodoxy, and convincing all the world that Hashem and only Hashem is God at least borders on the miraculous.

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

As an ex-Christian, I can understand where you're coming from. But really you're coming at the question from the wrong direction. Two of the prophecies that talk about him, 2 Samuel 7:12-16 and 1 Chronicles 22:9-10, say that he will be a biological descendant of David through Solomon. The plain meaning available to all readers pretty much tells us that he's a man. To assume otherwise is the non-obvious, and your question should be "what are some of the scripture references that are used to support the view that he would be a divine god-man?"

[sylvius]

Please spare us your christian nonsense, sylvius. Anastasia wanted an answer according to Judaism. If she wanted a christian answer, she would have posted in a christian section.

He is the very Jewish Messiah, Tanakh Keeper, the עֹשֵׂה פֶלֶא, "oseh-pele", miracle worker (Exodus 15:11).

And about Anastasia I don't know what or why.

She didn't say where she read it, nor how she came to her questions.

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

She at least seems to believe the resurrection, according her name...

Resurrection is a Jewish thing.

Rashi on Genesis 2:7,

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi/true

formed: [וַיִּיצֶר, with two “yuds,” hints at] two creations, a creation for this world and a creation for the [time of the] resurrection of the dead, but in connection with the animals, which do not stand in judgment, two“yuds” are not written in [the word וַיִּצֶר describing their creation. — [from Tan. Tazria 1]

[Dracula Girl]

I would like to tell you where I read it. I have to do some digging to see if I stumble on what website I read the first on and what I read the second on. I supposed then the questions are rather are those statements in keeping with Jewish thought and then what is the source which in at least one case should be scripture according to a site that did not give a scripture reference. I apologize for the lack of sources and regret not saving them. If you can clarify my understanding, that would be appreciated.

I think you are talking about D e u t 13:1-6. ...

Basically, Torah is telling us that miracles should not be used as the means to determine whether a particular person is a prophet or not. The correct test to determine if a person is a valid prophet is their adherence to the words of the Torah. Valid prophets don't change the words of the Torah or tell us to worship gods that didn't appear to the Jewish people at Sinai.

Tanakh Keeper, can I call you TK? But this reference does not negate the possibility that the messiah would/could perform miracles, just the reliance on them instead of of sound teaching?

Where in the world did you read that? In my opinion, bringing all the Jews back to Israel and back to Orthodoxy, and convincing all the world that Hashem and only Hashem is God at least borders on the miraculous.

As an ex-Christian, I can understand where you're coming from. But really you're coming at the question from the wrong direction. Two of the prophecies that talk about him, 2 Samuel 7:12-16 and 1 Chronicles 22:9-10, say that he will be a biological descendant of David through Solomon. The plain meaning available to all readers pretty much tells us that he's a man. To assume otherwise is the non-obvious, and your question should be "what are some of the scripture references that are used to support the view that he would be a divine god-man?"

Very interesting. I would like to know the correlating question you posed, as that is my next step in this question. I should clarify that my question's general answers are already given, and then I would enjoy that.

And yes, I believe in the resurrection. I fail to see how this is relevant to the question, so lets not deviate for a couple more posts, k?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Tanakh Keeper, can I call you TK? But this reference does not negate the possibility that the messiah would/could perform miracles, just the reliance on them instead of of sound teaching?

Cut-n-paste works for longer names, but TK is fine.

Yes. G-d performed miracles on behalf of our prophets. It isn't the miracle that provides substance for their claims. It is speaking the words of G-d without deviation that backs the claim of being a prophet.

According to the Talmud, the future messiah will be a mortal man. The future messiah will prove himself by his words and deeds. And as Salty pointed out, many of these deeds will seem miraculous when they occur. But if the claimaint claims to be the future messiah and deviates from G-d words, then no matter what miracles seem to have happened, that claimaint would have disqualified himself from the title.

[Salty]

I would like to tell you where I read it. I have to do some digging to see if I stumble on what website I read the first on and what I read the second on. I supposed then the questions are rather are those statements in keeping with Jewish thought and then what is the source which in at least one case should be scripture according to a site that did not give a scripture reference. I apologize for the lack of sources and regret not saving them. If you can clarify my understanding, that would be appreciated.

That's okay, the actual sites don't matter. I guess I'd really like to know if that was a Jew who wrote that, or a non-Jew who was giving his or her understanding of the issue. Even if it were a Jewish source, there's no guarantee that it is a valid statement, or in agreement with Orthodox Judaism. There is also the possibility that the difference in the Christian understanding of the messiah and that of your source may have led you to a misunderstanding of what was written. Or not.

Personally, I have never heard that from any rabbi, never heard it mentioned or read it anywhere. Come to think of it, I don't recall any discussions on whether or not he would do any miracles at all. Probably because, as Tanakh Keeper pointed out, the only things Torah gives us with which to identify the messiah are the 9 or 10 things he must accomplish. Miracles "on the side", if you will, like walking on water, turning water into wine, etc., do not have any bearing on it.

Very interesting. I would like to know the correlating question you posed, as that is my next step in this question. I should clarify that my question's general answers are already given, and then I would enjoy that.

Ok, good. So, if you find the answer to my converse question, post it here, please.

[Tanakh Keeper]

Come to think of it, I don't recall any discussions on whether or not he would do any miracles at all. Probably because, as Tanakh Keeper pointed out, the only things Torah gives us with which to identify the messiah are the 9 or 10 things he must accomplish. Miracles "on the side", if you will, like walking on water, turning water into wine, etc., do not have any bearing on it.

In my mind's eye, when I think of the future messiah, I think "Political leader", not miracle worker. The Talmud is unclear if the future messiah will actually complete the prophecies himself or simply arrive right when they all happen. I've heard sages with either viewpoint. May it happen in our lifetimes.

[Salty]

Amen.

[apostoli]

Yes. G-d performed miracles on behalf of our prophets. It isn't the miracle that provides substance for their claims. It is speaking the words of G-d without deviation that backs the claim of being a prophet.

In the NT Jesus says his words aren't his, but his Father's. Likewise he says if you don't believe the words, believe the works. So at the least, from your measuring stick, he meets the criteria of a prophet.

According to the Talmud, the future messiah will be a mortal man.

In the NT it says that Jesus was born of a woman, and that he died. So he again meets your criteria.

The future messiah will prove himself by his words and deeds.

According to the NT, Jesus meets this criteria as well. Even to the point of correcting the religious leaders rewriting of the Mosiac law.

And as Salty pointed out, many of these deeds will seem miraculous when they occur. But if the claimaint claims to be the future messiah and deviates from G-d words, then no matter what miracles seem to have happened, that claimaint would have disqualified himself from the title.

It is note worthy that in the NT Jesus never once claims to be the Messiah to the Jewish people. According to the NT he kept them guessing. Likewise with his disciples. The few that came to a direct realisation were ordered to keep it a secret. So again Jesus meets your criteria...

[Tanakh Keeper]

Apostoli, your man also met the criteria of D e u t 13:1-6 very well.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. 2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," 4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your G-d, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul. 5. You shall follow the Lord, your G-d, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. 6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your G-d Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your G-d, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

You've been led astray.