Where does it say this?

[apostoli]

Apostoli, your man also met the criteria of D e u t 13:1-6 very well.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. 2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," 4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your G-d, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul. 5. You shall follow the Lord, your G-d, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. 6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your G-d Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your G-d, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

You've been led astray.

I think the bit you bolded is a valid proposition. In my perspective David led Israel astray and subjected it to what has been called by Jewish scholars "the temple cult". Thus in Judaism YHWH in the modern world has become irrelevent compared to nationalistic sentiments. I suggest the same situation occured in the time of Annas, when the temple cult was at its paramount corruption!

[mitzi]

I read that a Jewish Messiah must reject doing miracles. Why? Is this in Torah?

I've also read that the messiah must be a normal, mortal man. What are some of the scripture references that are used to support this view?

Thank you

How many miracles did the Israelite view in the desert? - which the question could extend to the first commandment, And God spoke all these words: "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, You shall have no other gods before me." (According to the Medieval Sefer ha-Chinuch, the first four statements concern the relationship between God and humans, while the next six statements concern the relationships between people. Rabbinic literature holds that the Ten Statements in fact contain 14 or 15 distinct instructions; see listing under Yitro (parsha - LINK).

God had delivered the Israelites out of bondage - miracle one! The second miracle was when the Israelite's crossed the "Yam Soof" which means the "Sea of Reeds." Exodus 13:17-15:26 LINK

What happened after these miracles - "There were those who trusted implicitly in the Almighty and who jumped into the sea and found themselves on dry land. The other group did not have such a high level of trust in the Almighty - even though they had seen the Ten Plagues afflict the Egyptians and had witnessed the miracles accompanying the Exodus from Egypt - they waited until they saw the dry land and then went on the dry land in the midst of the sea."

Even miracles can not give all complete = trust and faith. It is not the central for the believer or even the one's who remain faithful to God. Despite the many years of slavery, the miracles of leaving Egypt couldn't produce all persons (Israelites) to wipe out the memory - as God (Himself) knew this: Read the history of the Jewish people - the history is in the prayer with Nehemiah, Ester, Judith, Tobit.

The miracle of the coming of the Messiah (a calling from God - to open the Messianic age) will be seen by all - but just like the Exodus - many will believe and others will be like those at the sea of reeds - sometimes slavery (even the non visible of slavery) can make a person's heart and soul turn onto deaf ears.

[Salty]

Yes. G-d performed miracles on behalf of our prophets. It isn't the miracle that provides substance for their claims. It is speaking the words of G-d without deviation that backs the claim of being a prophet.

In the NT Jesus says his words aren't his, but his Father's. Likewise he says if you don't believe the words, believe the works. So at the least, from your measuring stick, he meets the criteria of a prophet.

Saying your words are G-d's do not prove they are. And as Tanakh Keeper pointed out, Deut. 13 says you cannot believe the works if the words aren't G-d's.

According to the Talmud, the future messiah will be a mortal man.

In the NT it says that Jesus was born of a woman, and that he died. So he again meets your criteria.

That is an attribute of the messiah, but it isn't a qualification. Otherwise, I could say I'm the messiah, or you are.

And of course, the fact Jesus was a mortal man disqualifies him from two of the most important of Christian doctrines, that of being a universal, all-atoning sacrifice (G-d explicitly says three times that human sacrifice is an abomination to Him, hence unacceptable), and of being G-d ("G-d is not a man, that He should lie, nor a Son of Man that He should relent" Numbers 23:19; and He does not change, Micah 3:6).

The future messiah will prove himself by his words and deeds.

According to the NT, Jesus meets this criteria as well. Even to the point of correcting the religious leaders rewriting of the Mosiac law.

You misunderstood. The future messiah will prove himself by fulfilling all the messianic prophecies. Jesus died before he could fulfill even one, so he did not meet that criteria. Correcting a perceived "rewriting of Mosaic Law" is not one of the qualifications.

And as Salty pointed out, many of these deeds will seem miraculous when they occur. But if the claimaint claims to be the future messiah and deviates from G-d words, then no matter what miracles seem to have happened, that claimaint would have disqualified himself from the title.

It is note worthy that in the NT Jesus never once claims to be the Messiah to the Jewish people. According to the NT he kept them guessing. Likewise with his disciples. The few that came to a direct realisation were ordered to keep it a secret. So again Jesus meets your criteria...

I had to chuckle at how you thought that the important part of TK's last point is the claim to be messiah, when that's irrelevant. Not deviating from G-d's words, and fulfilling the prophecies, that is what matters.

[Salty]

Thus in Judaism YHWH in the modern world has become irrelevent compared to nationalistic sentiments.

No offense intended, but you really do not know what you're talking about. Nothing is more important to Orthodox Jews, their lives, their worship, their beliefs and practices. Do you know anything beyond what the NT or your Christian ministers say about them?

[apostoli]

In the NT Jesus says his words aren't his, but his Father's. Likewise he says if you don't believe the words, believe the works. So at the least, from your measuring stick, he meets the criteria of a prophet.

Saying your words are G-d's do not prove they are. And as Tanakh Keeper pointed out, Deut. 13 says you cannot believe the works if the words aren't G-d's.

May as well reject the entire OT, as there is no evidence that any of it is from God.

If a man heals the blind & sick before many witnesses as the NT declares, and attributes his ability to do so to his Father, and says his Father is God. What evidence is there against him, apart from some philosophical perspective. At a loss some figured Jesus to be a Samaritan and that he was possessed by a demon (John 8:48), others acknowledged that at the least God was working through him.

According to the Talmud, the future messiah will be a mortal man.

In the NT it says that Jesus was born of a woman, and that he died. So he again meets your criteria.

That is an attribute of the messiah, but it isn't a qualification. Otherwise, I could say I'm the messiah, or you are.

Many in Israel's history declared themselves to be the annointed of God (Messiah), so there is no reason you couldn't do the same, but can you claim to have a right to the throne of David as an heredity right?

And of course, the fact Jesus was a mortal man disqualifies him from two of the most important of Christian doctrines, that of being a universal, all-atoning sacrifice (G-d explicitly says three times that human sacrifice is an abomination to Him, hence unacceptable)

Have a read of Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Have a think on that!"

It is not God that required Jesus' sacrifice, but man! Consider Genesis 8:20-21, when saved from the flood Noah immediately disobeyed God's instructions and slaughtered a bunch of animals as an appeasement and thanksgiving and God declared "the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth".

Jesus' sacrifice was self sacrifice, an expemplar to highlight man's inhumanity to man. He wasn't offered to God by the priestly class that had him murdered, so wasn't a religious sacrifice of atonement, the sacrifice is spiritual on the part of Jesus - he wasn't suicidal, it was the religious leaders of the temple that were murderous, the penalty for which is given at Genesis 9:6.

and of being G-d ("G-d is not a man, that He should lie, nor a Son of Man that He should relent" Numbers 23:19

YHWH is a man of war (Ex 15:3). According to Genesis 18, three men ate with Abraham, one was recognised by Abraham as YHWH (cp. Jn 8:40,56-58).

and He does not change, Micah 3:6)

Nor does/did the Memra of YHWH = the Logos of God = the Word of God, that partook of the flesh and was named Jesus!

The future messiah will prove himself by his words and deeds.

According to the NT, Jesus meets this criteria as well. Even to the point of correcting the religious leaders rewriting of the Mosiac law.

You misunderstood. The future messiah will prove himself by fulfilling all the messianic prophecies. Jesus died before he could fulfill even one, so he did not meet that criteria.

Which messianic prophecies did Jesus not fulfill? Consider YHWH's promises to David concerning a kingdom that would last forever. Well, it was very short lived! So either YHWH wasn't truely God or was a prankster or many misunderstand the prophecies, limiting them to the physical.

Correcting a perceived "rewriting of Mosaic Law" is not one of the qualifications.

According to several of the prophets, one of his jobs was to open the eyes and ears of the people, so that they would see and hear, so it is one of his qualifications.

Also, I correct myself, the rewritting wasn't of Moses ordinances, but God's commandments eg: to honour your father and your mother see Mt 15:4-9.

And as Salty pointed out, many of these deeds will seem miraculous when they occur. But if the claimaint claims to be the future messiah and deviates from G-d words, then no matter what miracles seem to have happened, that claimaint would have disqualified himself from the title.

It is note worthy that in the NT Jesus never once claims to be the Messiah to the Jewish people. According to the NT he kept them guessing. Likewise with his disciples. The few that came to a direct realisation were ordered to keep it a secret. So again Jesus meets your criteria...

I had to chuckle at how you thought that the important part of TK's last point is the claim to be messiah, when that's irrelevant.

Guess you aren't aware that in the criteria of the 1st century, to claim to be the Messiah was an instant confirmation that you weren't. A logical precaution given the number of claiments since the time of the Macabees.

Not deviating from G-d's words, and fulfilling the prophecies, that is what matters.

When did Jesus at any time deviate from Gods words? And again which of the prophecies did he not fulfill?

I think the bit you bolded is a valid proposition. In my perspective David led Israel astray and subjected it to what has been called by Jewish scholars "the temple cult". Thus in Judaism YHWH in the modern world has become irrelevent compared to nationalistic sentiments. I suggest the same situation occured in the time of Annas, when the temple cult was at its paramount corruption!

No offense intended, but you really do not know what you're talking about. Nothing is more important to Orthodox Jews, their lives, their worship, their beliefs and practices. Do you know anything beyond what the NT or your Christian ministers say about them?

No offense taken, but you should have observed my remark in its context. Many a Rabbi will attest that their wider flock has more concern about secular considerations than religious piety, and national/tribal identity is paramount to their social lives. I think it is just a problem with people generally.

Like other religions, Judaism has its divisions = orthodox, reformed, liberals and numerous other factions. So it can be difficult to get a view of Judaism outside of the one thing they see themselves as having in common = national identity.

I grew up in a largely Jewish community, and all my life have worked with persons of various Jewish faiths, never had a problem with any of them, but from observation many persons are religiously disinterested or are more concerned with ritual and tradition. Of course I've encountered pious fellows, and admire their personal faith.

___________

An aside...


Amusement: Years ago, I was in a butcher shop and the local Rabbi came in and ordered a leg of pork. The butcher remarked, I thought you weren't allowed to eat pork. The Rabbi laughed and replied: When I get home I'll bless it and it will be chicken. (Believe it or not, a true story).

Seriously: I've been told that it is now taught that the prohibition was merely a health issue as pigs were generally worm infested, but the prohibition is not required given modern farming practices. An alternate view is the prohibition stands, as it is said that pork tastes like human flesh (?)

[Pilgrim]

Please spare us your christian nonsense, sylvius. Anastasia wanted an answer according to Judaism. If she wanted a christian answer, she would have posted in a christian section.

Wait, I thought the Pharisees and Jesus were both Jewish?

[OneSizeFit]

Wait, I thought the Pharisees and Jesus were both Jewish?

More than that, the first Christians were all Hebrews. Jesus was not accepted as Messiah because he worked healing miracles like Honi or because he was a successful rebel like Bar Kochba, he was accepted as Messiah because of the resurrection.

Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus,called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead,

He was the One found faithful unto death, and through that faithfulness he was declared King according to God in line with prophecy, the Son of Man in Daniel 7, the "lowercase" Lord of Psalm 110.

[Salty]

May as well reject the entire OT, as there is no evidence that any of it is from God.

That's true. And maybe I'll start a thread on why I believe the evidence there is is proof enough for me.

But for this discussion, you and I both believe for our own reasons that the Hebrew bible is from God, and neither of us reject any of it, right? That brings us back to the NT which claims to be based on, and the fulfillment of, the Hebrew bible. It's that claim that must be proven, by comparing what it says to what the Hebrew bible says. If they are at odds--and they are--then it is not the word of God.

If a man heals the blind & sick before many witnesses as the NT declares, and attributes his ability to do so to his Father, and says his Father is God. What evidence is there against him, apart from some philosophical perspective. At a loss some figured Jesus to be a Samaritan and that he was possessed by a demon (John 8:48), others acknowledged that at the least God was working through him.

Again, actions are not words, and you cannot believe the works if the words aren't from God. Otherwise you'd have to believe that people like David Hogan, Benny Hinn, Manessah Jordan, et al, speak the words of God just because of their healings.

Many in Israel's history declared themselves to be the annointed of God (Messiah), so there is no reason you couldn't do the same, but can you claim to have a right to the throne of David as an heredity right?

No, because I'm a gentile. But there have been, and are, thousands of jews who could.

Have a read of Psalm 40:6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Have a think on that!"

It is not God that required Jesus' sacrifice, but man! Consider Genesis 8:20-21, when saved from the flood Noah immediately disobeyed God's instructions and slaughtered a bunch of animals as an appeasement and thanksgiving and God declared "the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth".

Nonsense. That sacrifice was pleasing to God (verse 21) which is why He said to Himself He would never again destroy the earth by flood. It's why he had Noah take enough clean animals and birds along. And by the way, offerings were never appeasements, that's a pagan concept.

Jesus' sacrifice was self sacrifice, an expemplar to highlight man's inhumanity to man. He wasn't offered to God by the priestly class that had him murdered, so wasn't a religious sacrifice of atonement, the sacrifice is spiritual on the part of Jesus - he wasn't suicidal, it was the religious leaders of the temple that were murderous, the penalty for which is given at Genesis 9:6.

Now there's a convoluted argument. Was it self-sacrifice, or was he murdered? But more importantly, nothing you said there denies it was a human sacrifice; you say Jesus was a man, and that it was a sacrifice. Hence, it's still an abomination and unacceptable to God.

YHWH is a man of war (Ex 15:3).

Anthropomorphic allegory.

According to Genesis 18, three men ate with Abraham, one was recognised by Abraham as YHWH (cp. Jn 8:40,56-58).

No, those were messengers of God. Man cannot see God and live (Exodus 33:20). God is infinite and has no form, He does not occupy space. The Infinite cannot be finite.

The messengers were like “man phones”, people through whom Abraham spoke with God as if face to face, just as we talk to one another through phones while being miles, even thousands of miles, apart. But they are no more God than the person you're speaking with is the phone.

Nor does/did the Memra of YHWH = the Logos of God = the Word of God, that partook of the flesh and was named Jesus!

What does that even mean, “God partook of the flesh”, or as another Christian friend of mine put it, “was manifest in the flesh”? Words are a creation, therefore they are not God, even if they are spoken by God.

Which messianic prophecies did Jesus not fulfill?

He didn't fulfill any of them.

Consider YHWH's promises to David concerning a kingdom that would last forever. Well, it was very short lived! So either YHWH wasn't truely God or was a prankster or many misunderstand the prophecies, limiting them to the physical.

Yeah, I know you want to resolve that by proclaiming Jesus as king, but that “forever” as you think of it was broken long before Jesus, beginning when Judah was destroyed by the Babylonians, and stayed without a king for... how long?

According to several of the prophets, one of his jobs was to open the eyes and ears of the people, so that they would see and hear, so it is one of his qualifications.

Your choice to interpret opening eyes and ears to refer to Jesus' admonishments of the Pharisees is not supported by the prophecy; you're shooting the arrow and drawing a bulls-eye around it.

Also, I correct myself, the rewritting wasn't of Moses ordinances, but God's commandments eg: to honour your father and your mother see Mt 15:4-9.

Ah yes, Matthew's slander and lies against the rabbis, who taught no such thing as Matthew accuses them of. And speaking of not honoring your mother, read Mathew 12, Mark 3, Luke 8.

Oh, by the way, Mosaic Law is God's Law, as revealed through Moses.

Guess you aren't aware that in the criteria of the 1st century, to claim to be the Messiah was an instant confirmation that you weren't. A logical precaution given the number of claiments since the time of the Macabees.

And your source for this claim is... ?

When did Jesus at any time deviate from Gods words? And again which of the prophecies did he not fulfill?

Disagreed with kosher law (Matthew 15:1-25, Mark 7:1-34) and contradicted Leviticus 11:43. Violated Sabbath law (Math 12:3-4, Mark 2:25-26, Luke 6:3-4, and tried to squirm out of it by misrepresenting David's eating of the shewbread. Spared an adultress (John 8) in opposition to Deut 22:22. Etc.

And again, he didn't fulfill any of the prophecies.

No offense taken, but you should have observed my remark in its context. Many a Rabbi will attest that their wider flock has more concern about secular considerations than religious piety, and national/tribal identity is paramount to their social lives. I think it is just a problem with people generally.

First, that is hardly the same as the ludicrous claim that God is irrelevant to Jews and Judaism. Second, I have no idea of the truth of your claim, or which rabbis made the claim. And what a few Jews are concerned with does not define Judaism. Or shall I turn that around on you, because as a Christian I heard many, many preachers make the same lament about their flocks.

Like other religions, Judaism has its divisions = orthodox, reformed, liberals and numerous other factions. So it can be difficult to get a view of Judaism outside of the one thing they see themselves as having in common = national identity.

I grew up in a largely Jewish community, and all my life have worked with persons of various Jewish faiths, never had a problem with any of them, but from observation many persons are religiously disinterested or are more concerned with ritual and tradition. Of course I've encountered pious fellows, and admire their personal faith.

___________

An aside...


Amusement: Years ago, I was in a butcher shop and the local Rabbi came in and ordered a leg of pork. The butcher remarked, I thought you weren't allowed to eat pork. The Rabbi laughed and replied: When I get home I'll bless it and it will be chicken. (Believe it or not, a true story).

Seriously: I've been told that it is now taught that the prohibition was merely a health issue as pigs were generally worm infested, but the prohibition is not required given modern farming practices. An alternate view is the prohibition stands, as it is said that pork tastes like human flesh (?)

You are talking about Reform/Liberal Jews. They are no longer following Judaism, so I can't really say you are completely right on that score. You cannot define that as Judaism, even modern Judaism. Judaism now as followed by Orthodox Jews (and even many Conservative and probably some Reform, too) is the same as ancient Judaism. They will not eat pork, they will heed the prohibitions, and they have more spiritual connections to God than any Christian I've ever met, and that comes partly through and because of the rituals which serve to help make that connection.

[mitzi]

Apostoli, your man also met the criteria of D e u t 13:1-6 very well.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. 2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," 4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your G-d, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your G-d, with all your heart and with all your soul. 5. You shall follow the Lord, your G-d, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. 6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your G-d Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your G-d, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

You've been led astray.

The question here is what you consider to be idolatry - answer: anything that takes you away from the glory of G-d......did Jesus do that? NO.

John 9:1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. 7“Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

***************

Luke 17:11 Now on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus traveled along the border between Samaria and Galilee. 12As he was going into a village, ten men who had leprosya met him. They stood at a distance 13and called out in a loud voice, “Jesus, Master, have pity on us!”

14When he saw them, he said, “Go, show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went, they were cleansed.

15One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan.

17Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? 18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” 19 Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”

**********************

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.c 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.d 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘their worm does not die,and the fire is not quenched. 49 Everyone will be salted with fire.

50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

TK, there are many good passages that Jesus tries to teach to others ... but again, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."