Is reprobation theological....or isn't it?

[brtangel3]

Having begun with an agnostic outlook towards the things of God over 30 years ago I came through the usual "God is my buddy" theology of The Last Days Ministry, to the Arminian self help schools of thought...and then on to the Calvinistic doctrines which emphasized God's holiness and soveriengty.

Lately I have been questioning a major doctrine of Calvinism (at least SOME say it is a major doctrine). The more I study God's character the more I am beginning to find that God is a lot more holy and a lot more soveriegn than I previously had thought. A lot more terrifying too.

Its the doctrine of reprobation that no one seems to want to talk about. When you actually look for it in scripture it seems to be everywhere...and if it is true...there ought to be a whole lot a shakin goin on in our theological education.

Basically the doctrine of reprobation says...The plan of God from all eternity is absolutely sure and certain to the minutest detail because He actively causes His plan to come to pass by actively causing ALL actions and events...including the sins of men and angels.

comments?

[RBerman]

The General Theistics forum is a great place to get the opinions of nonChristians. If you're looking for Christian comments, the Theology subforum will be more successful if you're looking for people who want to talk about reprobation.

What would you like to say about it? It's a Biblical doctrine that, as you say, speaks to God's holiness and sovereignty in ways that go against some strong currents in American culture such as the myth of the "self-made man."

What do you mean that "there ought to be a whole lot a shakin goin on in our theological education"?

[brtangel3]

<What do you mean that "there ought to be a whole lot a shakin goin on in our theological education"?[/QUOTE]>

What i mean is...how come it isn't being taught? Can you name ANY Christian church or denomination who even mentions this doctrine...let alone embraces it?

[RBerman]

What do you mean that "there ought to be a whole lot a shakin goin on in our theological education"?

What i mean is...how come it isn't being taught? Can you name ANY Christian church or denomination who even mentions this doctrine...let alone embraces it?

Yep. It's a standard teaching of the Presbyterian Church, of which I am a member. We talk about it all the time; in fact, it was part of the Sunday School lesson I taught last week on Deuteronomy 29-30, since it comes up in that passage.

You have to be careful how you teach it, though. It's prone both to misunderstanding and to passionate emotions. Here's how the Westminster Confession of Faith, a central Presbyterian document, lays it out:

WCF Chapter 3

Of God's Eternal Decree.

1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.

© source where applicable

Back to my original concern: Were you trying to solicit nonChristian opinions on this topic, or should we move the thread to Theology 301 where such things are usually discussed among Christians?

[brtangel3]

To continue the discussion begun in Theology 101....I am asking why the doctrine of reprobation is seldom if ever taught. The last responder to this thread said that it IS taught in his presbyterian church according to the Westminster Confession. Ok...but that begs the question a little. Just what is it that is taught?? Does the confession teach that God is the author of sin? That is...it is GOD who causes men to sin? The confession admantly says no. (I'm reformed presbyterian myself)

If the confession says no...then it seems to me that it really does not have a doctrine of reprobation. All it has is an attempt to cover up the real character of God. Its like we want to affirm the absolute sovereignty of God...and yet deny that He is THAT soveriegn.

To flesh this out just ask if God is responsible for causing Esau's predicament? The doctrien of reprobation affirms that ALL events in reality have one ultimate CausER...and THAT is what is not being taught by at least 98% of Christianity (IMO).

[headheart]

Yep. It's a standard teaching of the Presbyterian Church, of which I am a member. We talk about it all the time; in fact, it was part of the Sunday School lesson I taught last week on Deuteronomy 29-30, since it comes up in that passage.

I may be wrong, but I think our nOOb is referring to the subject of 'Reprobation' - From what I can remember, John Bunyan, did an excellent teaching on the subject.

Yes, here it is 'Reprobation Asserted' , and from what I can remember Lorraine Boettner, does an excellent job explaining it as well.
Yes, here it is 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination'

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer.

[headheart]

I see you are currently in a discussion with RBerman, on this matter. He is very good at explaining the Reformed Doctrine, and I just posted up something you might enjoy reading, which pretty much covers the subject from top to bottom. ( here )

This question, should probably have been posted to Theology 301, not to Apologetics 301. Perhaps the Moderators, will see the comment and move it to the appropriate place.

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

[Raphael]

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[Obsidian]

When you actually look for it in scripture it seems to be everywhere
. . . .
Basically the doctrine of reprobation says...The plan of God from all eternity is absolutely sure and certain to the minutest detail because He actively causes His plan to come to pass by actively causing ALL actions and events...including the sins of men and angels.

When you say it's "everywhere," could you maybe give a few verses to support your position? Because I disagree.

[hedrick]

To continue the discussion begun in Theology 101....I am asking why the doctrine of reprobation is seldom if ever taught. The last responder to this thread said that it IS taught in his presbyterian church according to the Westminster Confession. Ok...but that begs the question a little. Just what is it that is taught?? Does the confession teach that God is the author of sin? That is...it is GOD who causes men to sin? The confession admantly says no. (I'm reformed presbyterian myself)

If the confession says no...then it seems to me that it really does not have a doctrine of reprobation. All it has is an attempt to cover up the real character of God. Its like we want to affirm the absolute sovereignty of God...and yet deny that He is THAT soveriegn.

To flesh this out just ask if God is responsible for causing Esau's predicament? The doctrien of reprobation affirms that ALL events in reality have one ultimate CausER...and THAT is what is not being taught by at least 98% of Christianity (IMO).

The Lutherans may have a more saleable version of the doctrine. They say that reprobation occurs at the level of God's plan, but since we can never know that, we can't and shouldn't talk about it.

You need to distinguish between what God does directly and "secondary causes." God doesn't cause anyone to sin. If you look at things on a human level, you could explain everything the reprobate do by human psychology. However if we could see things as God sees them, we'd realize that all of this is part of his plan. But his plan normally works itself out by natural causes. I say normally because God does choose to intervene now and then, and of course he works more personally with his people. So God isn't the cause of sin, but it's part of his plan.

98% of Christianity doesn't teach this because they don't understand the distinction between God's decree and secondary causes, so they think that this would make God the cause of sin. Obviously that's not acceptable. But 98% of Christians do pray and otherwise act as if God were in control. Most people accept the two key things: that God is in control, and that we make responsible choices. However it's difficult to reconcile these in a way that's complete consistent, and most people don't manage that.

[headheart]

Thanks Raphael.

[RBerman]

To continue the discussion begun in Theology 101....I am asking why the doctrine of reprobation is seldom if ever taught. The last responder to this thread said that it IS taught in his presbyterian church according to the Westminster Confession. Ok...but that begs the question a little. Just what is it that is taught?? Does the confession teach that God is the author of sin? That is...it is GOD who causes men to sin? The confession admantly says no. (I'm reformed presbyterian myself)

If the confession says no...then it seems to me that it really does not have a doctrine of reprobation. All it has is an attempt to cover up the real character of God. Its like we want to affirm the absolute sovereignty of God...and yet deny that He is THAT soveriegn.

To flesh this out just ask if God is responsible for causing Esau's predicament? The doctrien of reprobation affirms that ALL events in reality have one ultimate CausER...and THAT is what is not being taught by at least 98% of Christianity (IMO).

See Hedrick's excellent post explaining what WCF 3 means by "the contingency of secondary causes." As you'll note in WCF 3, it specifically denies that God is the author of sin yet affirms that God has ordained all things. The distinction between these two concepts is not simply a "cover up," and you would do well to study it as carefully as did the men who wrote WCF. It is not necessary to make God the "author" of sin in order to affirm the doctrine of reprobation.

[brtangel3]

<See Hedrick's excellent post explaining what WCF 3 means by "the contingency of secondary causes." As you'll note in WCF 3, it specifically denies that God is the author of sin yet affirms that God has ordained all things.>

Yes...I am well aware of the WCF explanation of "secondary causes". I just do not see where that that is even mentioned in scripture. Seems to me....If .."God has hardened Pharoh's heart"(Pharoh did NOT harden his own heart...and God CAUSED it and says so!!).....Chosen or elected based solely on the good pleasure of His will (and NO other reason)....

Saying that God had nothing to do with causing men to sin is silly. The fact that "not one jot or tittle will fail to come to pass" is another proof. Does "every jot and tittle' mean only the happy, funny, neat things??? ALL of it folks...every last atom is CAUSED by God. Like I said...a "cover up".

[RBerman]

See Hedrick's excellent post explaining what WCF 3 means by "the contingency of secondary causes." As you'll note in WCF 3, it specifically denies that God is the author of sin yet affirms that God has ordained all things.

Yes...I am well aware of the WCF explanation of "secondary causes". I just do not see where that that is even mentioned in scripture. Seems to me....If .."God has hardened Pharoh's heart"(Pharoh did NOT harden his own heart...and God CAUSED it and says so!!).....Chosen or elected based solely on the good pleasure of His will (and NO other reason)....

Saying that God had nothing to do with causing men to sin is silly. The fact that "not one jot or tittle will fail to come to pass" is another proof. Does "every jot and tittle' mean only the happy, funny, neat things??? ALL of it folks...every last atom is CAUSED by God. Like I said...a "cover up".

I'm sorry. I thought you wanted a discussion. My mistake.

[Obsidian]

.If .."God has hardened Pharoh's heart"(Pharoh did NOT harden his own heart...and God CAUSED it and says so!!)

Actually, the text specifically says that Pharaoh hardened his heart multiple times before God hardend it. We have already discussed this in a different thread.

Actually, what we see with Pharaoh is the following progression:

1. God tells Moses that he plans to harden Pharaoh's heart so that after Moses has performed all the wonders God has empowered him to do, the Pharaoh will not listen to Moses. (4:21)

2. God tells Moses the same thing again, referencing a multiplication of wonders. (7:3)

3. Pharaoh's heart becomes hard, without explaining specificaly who hardened it. (7:13)

4. Pharaoh's heart becomes hard. (7:22)

5. Pharaoh hardens his own heart. (8:15)

6. Pharaoh's hard is hard. (8:19)

7. Pharaoh hardens his own heart. (8:32)

8. God hardens Pharaoh's heart. (9:12)

9. Pharaoh and his officials harden their own hearts. (9:34)

10. God tells Moses that he has hardened the hearts of Pharaoh and his officials. (10:1)

11. God hardens Pharaoh's heart. (10:20)

12. God hardens Pharaoh's heart. (10:27)

13. God hardens Pharaoh's heart. (11:10)

14. God warns Moses that he is about to harden Pharaoh's heart again. (14:4)

15. God hardens Pharaoh's heart as planned. (14:8)

16. God states that he is about to harden the hearts of all the Egyptians. (14:17)