Preterism Is Dangerous

[TyRockwell]

I think that you know that you avoided the question I was posing. If you are interested in a sincere adult exchange, please address all of what I wrote in my last post (#298). If not, I fully understand and wish you only the best. I post this in the spirit of love and in hope that my time will not be wasted.

I think you mean the question as to whether Jesus' statements about his Second Coming, that "no man knows" only applied to his hearers. You think, if that were the case, you'd have to toss out the rest of the New Testament as only relevant to 1st century Hebrews and Christians. No. Only until the signs of his coming would all believers remain unknowing it is the season of his coming. The other teachings of the NT are not affected, made irrelavent, or put on hold.

Already, it is too late to complain that the rest of the NT doesn't apply outside the first century. Christians have understood ever since Jesus' ascension, to "keep on doing everything I commanded you to do. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20) We don't play those semantic games. Well, most of us don't.

But only here, in the rarified air of 'splitting hairs,' and cessationist ferver, do some people consider putting "everything I commanded you to do" in question.

If you see the signs, then "your redemption draws near." You know it is the season, though you still don't know the day or the hour.

Here we are close to agreement… There is no question that Jesus indicates what you say about the kingdom… In fact there is a valid argument to be made that he speaks of the Kingdom in past, present and future tenses...

I might have a quibble as to whether Jesus ever left the kingdom and therefore needs to come back to it… but that might prove to be a minor semantic quibble.

Warmest,
RonC

If it were not for a parable, or two.

12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Do business till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Luke 19:12-27 (KJV)

So, Jesus reigns, having received the kingdom, from heaven, where we are seated, spiritually with him, even while we are still on earth. Could it be, that we should keep on doing everything he told us to do, using the gifts (of the Spirit) he gave us?

Even things that are hidden, that is not known, will be revealed. See here:

25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Matt 10:25-27 (KJV)

[franktalk]

Most people who think Hebrews living in the Holy Land is a "sign" are mis-applying scriptures that foretold their return from Babylonian exile. The ones who listened to Jeremiah fled to where-ever they wanted to go. The Israelites who didn't flee, but fought to the end where taken captive to Babylon in 586 BC.

This is why it was said they would return from the nations to which they had been "scattered," as well as from Babylon.

I think that the nation of Israel is a fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy. Some disagree. But it does set the stage for the Magog invasion. Again some disagree. Who knows it may happen in my lifetime, or not.

The establishment of Israel as a nation is not a sign in my view. But it does allow for some prophecies to take place that require a nation of Jews. In my opinion.

[RonC]

Hi Ty,

I am trying to focus on the main issues I have with your post one at a time. Here is the first.

I think you mean the question as to whether Jesus' statements about his Second Coming, that "no man knows" only applied to his hearers. You think, if that were the case, you'd have to toss out the rest of the Bible as only relevant to 1st century Hebrews and Christians. No. Only until the signs of his coming would any believers remain unknowing it is the season of his coming. The other teachings of the NT are not affected, made irrelavent, or put on hold.

That is a serious grammatical inconsistency. There is nothing in the text of the gospels which indicates that one verse Jesus speaks to the Apostles is only for those who are listening at that time and in that place and another verse is not. You would have to show a grammatically consistent linguistic marker which indicates this. Such as verses that specifically refer to a given person or Apostle… “thou art Peter and upon this rock…”

Already, it is too late to complain that the rest of the NT doesn't apply outside the first century. Christians have understood ever since Jesus' ascension, to "keep on doing everything I commanded you to do. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20) We don't play those semantic games. Well, most of us don't.

Your position is that certain verse do and other do not. That is a not a consistent position unless you can demonstrate a grammatically consistent linguistic marker.

Warmest,
RonC

[TyRockwell]

I think that the nation of Israel is a fulfillment of the dry bones prophecy. Some disagree. But it does set the stage for the Magog invasion. Again some disagree. Who knows it may happen in my lifetime, or not.

The establishment of Israel as a nation is not a sign in my view. But it does allow for some prophecies to take place that require a nation of Jews. In my opinion.

No, to the dry bones part. Yes, to the bolded part, specifically Romans 11:25-32

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 11:25-32 (KJV)

The Hebrews have to be a distinct people, living as one ethnicity, so that when they are all saved it will be visibly, verifiably known that it is true.

[TyRockwell]

Hi Ty,

I am trying to focus on the main issues I have with your post one at a time. Here is the first.

That is a serious grammatical inconsistency. There is nothing in the text of the gospels which indicates that one verse Jesus speaks to the Apostles is only for those who are listening at that time and in that place and another verse is not. You would have to show a grammatically consistent linguistic marker which indicates this. Such as verses that specifically refer to a given person or Apostle… “thou art Peter and upon this rock…”

Your position is that certain verse do and other do not. That is a not a consistent position unless you can demonstrate a grammatically consistent linguistic marker.

Warmest,
RonC

I did not limit the statement, "no one knows" to only the Apostles. I said it covers all Christians UNTIL the signs of his coming, which has been about 1977 years, now, going back to about 33AD.

Even then, we'll only know it is the SEASON.

[franktalk]

No, to the dry bones part. Yes, to the bolded part, specifically Romans 11:25-32

The Hebrews have to be a distinct people, living as one ethnicity, so that when they are all saved it will be visibly, verifiably known that it is true.

You and I disagree on many things as I have stated before. And my understanding of Romans 11 is different than yours. That is fine.

What is important is you embrace the belief in God. I think you are firm in your belief and in tribulation you would not take the mark. So prophecy and doctrine will be what it is but faith rules the day.

[RonC]

I did not limit the statement, "no one knows" to only the Apostles. I said it covers all Christians UNTIL the signs of his coming, which has been about 1977 years, now, going back to about 33AD.

Even then, we'll only know it is the SEASON.

Thank you for the clarification. I see now what you meant. Here are your exact words.

"Jesus was speaking to his disciples, the ones who had asked the question, not to all Christians of all time, especially not to those living at the time of the signs."

I am not citing your words as some "got-cha" silliness, I am citing them because I do not see the distinction you are making as being present in the language of the scriptures. Please cite the textual support you have for your assertion that Jesus words have limitation as to who they are meant for. Specifically your assertion that "no one knows... covers all Christians until the signs of the coming". And forgive me if you already have and I am causing you to repeat yourself.

[TyRockwell]

Thank you for the clarification. I see now what you meant. Here are your exact words.

"Jesus was speaking to his disciples, the ones who had asked the question, not to all Christians of all time, especially not to those living at the time of the signs."

I am not citing your words as some "got-cha" silliness, I am citing them because I do not see the distinction you are making as being present in the language of the scriptures. Please cite the textual support you have for your assertion that Jesus words have limitation as to who they are meant for. Specifically your assertion that "no one knows... covers all Christians until the signs of the coming". And forgive me if you already have and I am causing you to repeat yourself.

Jesus said, "When you see all these things, KNOW that it (his coming) is NEAR, even at the doors."
He had just made the fig tree analogy of knowing when summer, the SEASON, is near. (see also 1st Thess 5:1-5 for "seasons")

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, KNOW that it [his Coming] is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:33 (KJV) KNOW is a verb, in this case, a command.

The words, "all these things" (that will be seen) are SIGNS, and refer to these things:

then shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
Matt 24:29-30 (KJV)

He went on to state what particular things men would NOT KNOW:

36 But of that [24 hour] day and hour [of that day] knoweth no man
Matt 24:36 (KJV)

[MegaHertz]

Have you considered the skies darkening is part of the return and only takes a few minutes from start to finish? Any prophecies given for what vs:29 calls tribulation would be a 'aid' in narrowing the date down somewhat. "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.", the wisdom the Bible gives us about those last few years is the only defense that God gives us.

The tribulation that was before that event is what Revelation calls woe #1&2 and it changes to woe #3 when the skies begin to darken.
The signs that will occur during that 'trib' include the verses going back to 23.
Christ's return (with the darkening skies) Vs:21&22 are the 7 vials that are poured out on all those who have been causing tribulation for other inhabitants of the earth.

[Littlejoe]

Jesus said, "When you see all these things, KNOW that it (his coming) is NEAR, even at the doors."
He had just made the fig tree analogy of knowing when summer, the SEASON, is near. (see also 1st Thess 5:1-5 for "seasons")

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, KNOW that it [his Coming] is near, even at the doors.
Matt 24:33 (KJV) KNOW is a verb, in this case, a command.

The words, "all these things" (that will be seen) are SIGNS, and refer to these things:

then shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
Matt 24:29-30 (KJV)

He went on to state what particular things men would NOT KNOW:

36 But of that [24 hour] day and hour [of that day] knoweth no man
Matt 24:36 (KJV)

So when Peter says in Acts 2 that these (right now as he is speaking) ARE the days foretold by the prophet Joel and repeated by Jesus in the OD... he was just....mistaken?

LJ

[MegaHertz]

... he was just....mistaken?

I take it as that was the first time that event happened and it was within the 7 years that was the last of the 70 weeks of Da:9.
The cross fulfilled the bruise to the heel so everything after that is about events leading up to the bruise to Satan's head. That is part of the 'last days' prophecies and 144,000 from the 12 Tribes are sealed first and at Christ's return the Church is also sealed in an event that will be just like the one you referenced only on a larger number of people. JMHO

[Hitch]

So when Peter says in Acts 2 that these (right now as he is speaking) ARE the days foretold by the prophet Joel and repeated by Jesus in the OD... he was just....mistaken?

LJ

I have had DFs tell me this very thing

[RonC]

Ty,

Thank you for your time and patience in clarifying what you mean for me. We are in some agreement. We agree that in Matthew Jesus says that we cannot know…

It needs be noted that Jesus responds to what the disciples ask Him (in Matthew 24:3) about His return and the end of “the age”. In Matthew 12:32 Jesus teaches that there is this age and that to come. So obviously the disciples are talking about this age (as opposed to the one that is to come)… the Greek term connotes “this lifetime” and even “this generation”. It is not the same term Jesus uses when he says “my kingdom is not of the world”. In that verse the Greek term connotes “system” and is used by Greek philosophers to mean “universe” or “world-order”. In Matthew 24 Jesus is discussing the present age or period of time, not the universe.

I also need to address your use of the English terms as it relates to the Greek. I do not have time (forgive the pun!) right now to enter into a meaningful discussion of this subject with you because it involves an in-depth look at the Greek, but I will try to later.

I have opened a thread in Biblical Hermeneutics regarding the mood of the verb γινώσκετε in Matthew 24:32 and 33. I am interested in some feedback because I see both as indicative because of the context they are in and you see 33 as imperative… I hope you will be able to check on what gets posted there.

I will try to pick this up with you later.

Again, thanks for your time.

Warmest,
Ron

[TyRockwell]

So when Peter says in Acts 2 that these (right now as he is speaking) ARE the days foretold by the prophet Joel and repeated by Jesus in the OD... he was just....mistaken?

LJ

Peter was addressing Joel's prophecy of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh.

"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people,
Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

People are still calling on the name of the Lord, and the GREAT and Glorious Day of the Lord, His return, has not yet happened, and it is still the last days, and many are still receiving the poured out Spirit.

Of course, Peter was preaching on the Day of Pentecost, and that outpouring had just begun to happen, and as Peter revealed, would be ongoing for an unknown amount of time: "This promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, [in time or space] as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:39

There is a sense in which the events surrounding 70 AD were a "day of the Lord" in the same way as was the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem, which was punitive and shameful, but it was not the great and glorious Day of the Lord, which is the Second Advent of Jesus, a day that Peter would later call the "Day of God."
See 2nd Peter 3:1-13, in which Peter makes known that people will ask "Where is this 'coming' he promised?"

Peace and Glory,
Ty

[RonC]

Hi Ty,

On a thread concerning the mood of the verb “know” in Matthew 24:33, once it was established that it is more likely an indicative than an imperative, you responded:

Hi, RonC

Even if the phrase "know that it is near..." could be rendered, "you should know that it is near," it is still a command, only 'less imperative.' And it allows you to remain unknowing, if you wish.

That is incorrect. The Greek Indicative indicates a statement of fact; not a “would”, “should” or “could” and definitely not a command. I think that you will find that those attributes belong to different grammatical verbal moods.

It seems that clearer rendering of Matthew 24:32-33 may well be: “Now learn the parable of the fig tree: when her branch has become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same manner, when you see all these things you know that it is as near as at the doors.” Not a command. A simple statement of fact.

With that said, I can address your ideass on the meanings of the Greek terms such as ὥρα (hōra) – which is used as far back as Homer to indicate season(s)… even Thayer indicates “season” as a primary meaning of the term.

Given that (1) Jesus clearly says that no one, not even the Son, knows τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης or τῆς ὥρας; and (2) He is clear that "only the Father" knows; and (3) He emphasizes that same sentiment elsewhere; and (4) He says that it is not the disciples’ place to know because it is solely for the Father to know; and (5) Jesus never says that the Father will tell anyone; and (6) Paul never says that anyone but the Father will know, to construe Jesus words as a command to do that which He clearly states cannot be done paints a rather problematic picture of the Divine Incarnate. In addition, to take Paul’s words to mean that he teaches that one can know is to put him at odds with the Divine Incarnate. Paul and Jesus are saying the exact same thing: “Be vigilant that you live a righteous life and you cannot be taken off guard.” It is clear, simple, consistent and in harmony with all of Jesus’ teachings throughout the Gospels... whereas your speculations are not.

RonC