Preterism Is Dangerous

[seanD]

Try to read the questions a little bit more closely before you answer them, SeanD.

1) How do you identify what is "literal", symbolic, allegorical, metaphorical, hyperbolic, idiomatic or etc etc? (is the phrase "stars fall from the heavens" literal, symbolic, metaphorical, or idiomatic? Why? Is the phrase "trouble never to be equaled again" literal, symbolic, idiomatic, etc etc? why?)
2) Once identified, how do you learn what it means? (if "Stars fall from the sky" means "planes falling into the ocean" why is that better interpretation than "black smoke covering the planet" or "meteor shower in space"? )

I answered your question. Let me make it bit more simple then.

1) It’s a pure guess. Futurism guesses just as much as preterism guesses, evident by the hundreds of different interpretations from each camp. The literal interpretation, whether symbolic or imagery, is just as much a guess as the allegorical interpretation when there’s no explanation given within the text itself.

2) The futurist doesn’t know what it means anymore than the preterist does other than just a guess. The futurist, however, at least has faith in an endgame, and knows that when it happens the interpretation will be clear to them and they’ll know who’s right. Instead of using Revelation scripture to guess how it fulfills an event, the event will interpret the scripture.

[Jin-Roh]

I answered your question. Let me make it bit more simple then.

1) It’s a pure guess. Futurism guesses just as much as preterism guesses, evident by the hundreds of different interpretations from each camp. The literal interpretation, whether symbolic or imagery, is just as much a guess as the allegorical interpretation when there’s no explanation given within the text itself.

2) The futurist doesn’t know what it means anymore than the preterist does other than just a guess. The futurist, however, at least has faith in an endgame, and knows that when it happens the interpretation will be clear to them and they’ll know who’s right. Instead of using Revelation scripture to guess how it fulfills an event, the event will interpret the scripture.

Oh. Em. Gee

I can't believe what I just read. Somebody has got to PoTD the above post!!

I am so quoting this on my blog!!

[seanD]

Oh. Em. Gee

I can't believe what I just read. Somebody has got to PoTD the above post!!

I am so quoting this on my blog!!

Are you saying that preterism doesn't guess? Is that why there are at least a dozen different ways preterist theologians interpret the beast, the horns, and the harlot? I guess preterists don't use the hermeneutic approach you keep referring to, Or is it that the hermeneutic approach is interpreting it the way you want and that sounds good

[Jin-Roh]

Oh I'm tapping out at this point SeanD. Your previous post has made a stronger case for preterism than I ever could!

[seanD]

Oh I'm tapping out at this point SeanD. Your previous post has made a stronger case for preterism than I ever could!

Thats cool. Suit yourself.

Not only do I find preterism completely absurd in some cases (i.e. Matthew 24:30-31), but it's fundamentally not logical to me. I can’t get myself to believe that God would give us a book full of just symbolisms with no endgame to verify what they actually mean and that no one can interpret correctly because no one can agree on one interpretation. If preterism is true, as a result, we’ll never know what the allegory really means, because we have to guess who’s right or what interpretation sounds good. I suppose this makes sense to some people. To me this doesn’t make sense at all, nor does it serve much purpose IMO.

[Hitch]

Thats cool. Suit yourself.

Not only do I find preterism completely absurd in some cases (i.e. Matthew 24:30-31), but it's fundamentally not logical to me. I can’t get myself to believe that God would give us a book full of just symbolisms with no endgame to verify what they actually mean and that no one can interpret correctly because no one can agree on one interpretation. If preterism is true, as a result, we’ll never know what the allegory really means, because we have to guess who’s right or what interpretation sounds good. I suppose this makes sense to some people. To me this doesn’t make sense at all, nor does it serve much purpose IMO.

Ducks flying backward make more sense than your paragraph here Sean.

[Hitch]

answered your question. Let me make it bit more simple then.

1) It’s a pure guess. Futurism guesses just as much as preterism guesses, evident by the hundreds of different interpretations from each camp. The literal interpretation, whether symbolic or imagery, is just as much a guess as the allegorical interpretation when there’s no explanation given within the text itself.

2) The futurist doesn’t know what it means anymore than the preterist does other than just a guess. The futurist, however, at least has faith in an endgame, and knows that when it happens the interpretation will be clear to them and they’ll know who’s right. Instead of using Revelation scripture to guess how it fulfills an event, the event will interpret the scripture.

Oh. Em. Gee

I can't believe what I just read. Somebody has got to PoTD the above post!!

I am so quoting this on my blog!!

This one is on par with Darfy's 'fairly imminent'.

[Hitch]

I'm really only going to respond to the bold, because when someone breaks up posts into little scattered pieces that's a sure sign they really have no argument that they can lay out in a clear and aggregate manner, and the discussion just gets convoluted and lost in a bunch of mundane sub-topics.

The answer to the bold is simple. Over looking the fact that Moses ordered them to kill the prophet not if the prophecy doesn't come to pass, but if they tell their followers to disregard the one true God (which is a whole different issue), then we disregard the prophet when what they claim doesn't come to pass, and then we take a bit more caution about jumping the gun ourselves, but that doesn't mean we disregard prophecy or invent some whole new method of interpreting prophecy. And you are incorrect about futurism. None of the apostles were preterists. None. They didn't interpret the parousia or "coming of the Lord" as a judgment on Israel. They all interpreted the "coming of the Lord" as the Lord's return, and they correlated this with the promises of the restoration of Israel (Acts 1:6) -- no such expectation of any judgment in sight -- and they were expecting this imminently. Interpreting Revelation solely (emphasis on the word "solely") as "mystical" symbols isn't evident until Eusebius, who lamented the fact that the previous fathers all interpreted Revelation literally, and were still expecting a coming antichrist, which he believed was an interpretative error. So preterism is a johnny come lately, as a result of a growing fear of failed prophecy.

You can learn a lot on web forums.

Until today I had always though the apostles believed Jesus whan he said

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"


I feel so much better now.

[MegaHertz]

I feel so much better now.

Think how much better you will feel when Jerusalem is no longer desolate of the presence of the Messiah.
Think how relieved the very ones He is chastising will be when they are brought back from the land that the desolate go to when God is not there to hold them up with the breath of life.

[MegaHertz]

I answered your question. Let me make it bit more simple then.

1) It’s a pure guess. Futurism guesses just as much as preterism guesses, evident by the hundreds of different interpretations from each camp. The literal interpretation, whether symbolic or imagery, is just as much a guess as the allegorical interpretation when there’s no explanation given within the text itself.

Is that by design or are men just not very smart? If you were to define the visions that do come with explanations from Daniel and Revelation as foundations that other prophecies have to blend in to then many of the 'variations' simply aren't supported by any verse, let alone complete passages.

2) The futurist doesn’t know what it means anymore than the preterist does other than just a guess. The futurist, however, at least has faith in an endgame, and knows that when it happens the interpretation will be clear to them and they’ll know who’s right. Instead of using Revelation scripture to guess how it fulfills an event, the event will interpret the scripture.

The Bible really is a light on how the end-times play out, whatever generation sees the beginnings will see the end of the 'separation and the gathering' that comes when judgment from above finally starts to affect the inhabitants. How else are we able to not be deceived by something that most of the people will swallow hook-line&sinker. If truth is the 'armor' then God would have been pretty specific about those last days.

[seanD]

Is that by design or are men just not very smart? If you were to define the visions that do come with explanations from Daniel and Revelation as foundations that other prophecies have to blend in to then many of the 'variations' simply aren't supported by any verse, let alone complete passages.



The Bible really is a light on how the end-times play out, whatever generation sees the beginnings will see the end of the 'separation and the gathering' that comes when judgment from above finally starts to affect the inhabitants. How else are we able to not be deceived by something that most of the people will swallow hook-line&sinker. If truth is the 'armor' then God would have been pretty specific about those last days.

Everyone thinks their interpretations are correct and everyone one else is interpreting it wrong. Nothing new. You're not unique in this regard Mega. I tend to ignore those who are adamant about their pet interpretations. The only thing I'm adamant about is how false much of preterism is, because the more I understand it, the more it's so obviously a fallacy that it's just silly. As far as interpretations, that's up for grabs.

[MegaHertz]

As far as interpretations, that's up for grabs.

The Bible has a finite set of words. Prophecy is even a smaller number of words. Determining who is alive at the end of the day of the Grewat White Throne is not an easy task using just the Bible. That doesn't mean it is an impossible task. What is impossible is having somebody accept something 'new', like the increase in knowledge in the 'time of the end' was a reference to all the NT and Revelation in particular being written.

I don't know anybody that would be willing to sit down and cover every mention of Babylon in the book of Jeremiah just because Revelation uses the term Babylon when referencing a destruction of a city run by Satan's team. Compound that with both Christ and Neb have been given the same title, Neb is referenced as being a 'king of kings' and Christ at the 7th trump of Revelation is called the 'King of Kings' which leads into verses being written that are prophetic about Christ's arrival compared to what happened when Neb came in. With Neb Babylon prospered, with Satan Babylon will be utterly destroyed, even in Israel after the last war there are two places that will not be inhabited by man that are in Israel. One is the boneyard that is associated with God and the other is a place that smokes for the whole 1,000 years and that is a place called Magog, the entrance to the pit that contains Satan and all fallen angels. EZE:39 is the foundation for that being the correct if reading that chapter as being a description of literal events. The feast can be found in multiple places and it ends up meaning the same feast rather than a variety of feasts over the ages. There is only one time where Christ does the killing.

Going over all the verses in the 4 Gospels that use the word fulfilled is a task that could be completed in a few long posts, the ramifications if all those 'truths' had to be implemented into every doctrine would narrow down the potions left. In this case, for the better.

[Hitch]

It doesn't always have to be allegorical. It could be symbolism of an angel or a fallen angel. But it doesn't always have to be symbolism either. It could be something that looked like a star to John, like an asteroid or some modern type of weapon (a missile carrying a biological agent) or equipment, and John used the only imagery he knew to describe it.

This is a fine example of 'pretend literalism '.

[Hitch]

Maybe Darfius has a point. All those preterist not holed up in the mountains waiting for the rapture, and all those post-millennilalist not pretending the Spirit is secretly telling them the end really is really really soon this time, are at some point going erode prophecy book sales. Not to mention Holy Land tours.

[One Bad Pig]

I'm not motivated by fear, sorry. I gave some cites from Scripture in my last post. Perhaps you could explain to my why you think Jesus, Paul, and James were motivating people through fear.

I need to amend this. I'm not motivated by the fear of getting caught with my spiritual pants down. Peter says,

1 Pet 1:17 NKJV

And if you call on the Father, who without respect of persons judges according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear.

,

The Psalmist says,

Psalm 111:10

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.His praise endures forever.

also,

2 Chron 19:9]Now therefore, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.”[/verse]

Solomon says the fear of the Lord
...is the beginning of knowledge (1:7)
...is to hate evil (8:13)
...is the beginning of wisdom (9:10)
...prolongs days (10:27)
...is a fountain of life (14:27)
...is the instruction of wisdom (15:33)
...leads to life (19:24)

So, just perhaps, fear is a good thing. You may want to re-think mocking it, Darfius.