Preterism Is Dangerous

[MegaHertz]

Riddle me this, Darfius. What nations were disposessed in the time of Noah?

There was only one 'nation' during the reign of the fallen angels. Nation(s) didn't exist until after the flood. North America is an Isle, South America is an Isle, as well as all the other land masses on this earth.

Ge:4:16:
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD,
and dwelt in the land of Nod,
on the east of Eden.

Ge:10:5:
By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands;
every one after his tongue,
after their families,
in their nations.

[MegaHertz]

The days of Noah...sounds like the days Israel is restored. Verse 15 makes it pretty obvious that it ain't just a "spiritual" kingdom. I love how the Bible interprets itself. Now we just need for preterists to read the Bible.

Are you claiming this Israel is the 'waster', btw, you forgot to mention that particular part?

Isa:54:16:
Behold,
I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire,
and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work;
and I have created the waster to destroy.
Isa:54:17:
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper;
and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD,
and their righteousness is of me,
saith the LORD.

[One Bad Pig]

I agree that there were no nations in the time of Noah - which makes the scriptures given by Darfius rather unrelated, yes?

[franktalk]

Now let us look at Matthew 24 the same way I did Luke 21.

Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Here Jesus is at the Temple. This is same as what is described in Luke. So this part of the conversation is the same as what is recorded in Luke.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Here the disciples ask questions of Christ. But in Luke the crowd asks Jesus when would the destruction of the Temple take place. Now in Luke we find out that in the day Jesus taught at the Temple but at night He went to the Mount of Olives. So the first 2 verses in this chapter take place in the day and at the Temple. And since Luke recorded what took place at the Temple this is not a repeat of that conversation. This is a different time (night) and different place (Temple verses Mount of Olives). Also the questions given Jesus are different than what was asked of Him at the Temple. Here what is in focus is His second coming and the end of the world.

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Here Jesus repeats the statements He made when He talked about the destruction of the Temple. The signs have not changed.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Here Jesus is telling them that after the signs many bad things will happen. But let us look at the differences here between Matthew and Luke. In Luke He says some of you will be killed. Here it says "and shall kill you" here also is all nations. In 70 AD Christians were not hated in all nations so this is different than what was tied to the destruction of Jerusalem. Also missing is being taken to synagogues and prisons.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This verse links the prophecy of Daniel to this prophecy. So we know that this is a seven year period where a covenant is established and in the middle of that time period someone will stand in the Holy Place and declare himself god. 2th 2:4

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Clearly this is not an event that has taken place (no, nor ever shall be). Jesus also gives instructions where to flee if you are in Judaea. This is the same place that Jesus told the Jews to flee to when the Roman armies were surrounding Jerusalem. For some reason Jordan is s spiritual haven.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus tells us that this prophecy is different than the one He told them before in which He used these same words. He reminds them about being told about false Christs. So Christ tells us directly that this prophecy is not the same. If this prophecy was the same then there would not be a "before". The Holy Spirit is telling us that not to confuse this prophecy with another.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

More details of the second coming and the tribulation.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is not the rapture. The elect are gathered in heaven. The Church is already there.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Generation here can be either the generation that Christ was talking to by the Temple before He moved to the Mount of Olives or it could be those who witness the signs. Two different generations that are separated by the signs. (and two thousand years)

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think that Christ ended His talk about the end times and started to talk about the rapture. I could be wrong.

[Darfius]

Riddle me this, Darfius. What nations were disposessed in the time of Noah?

Aside from the fact that your interpretation of what Christ meant is that "one person will be saved and the other damned", which is pure idiocy, you are missing the point.

Anytime a phrase in the Bible is repeated, you need to remember who produced the Bible and pay attention. Also, the passage from Isaiah is not saying that the days of Noah were a time when nations were dispossessed. It is saying that God swore something in the days of Noah and He will swear something similar in the days when the Israelites "dispossess" nations. But the fact that the phrase "days of Noah" appears cannot be a coincidence and Christ was certainly not unaware of the fact. It was one of those cryptic "only he who has ears to hear can hear" hints He liked to drop.

Pay more attention and you'll come into more of the truth.

[TyRockwell]

We must reconcile our conclusions with Mark 13:32 and Acts 1:17. In both instances they are told by Jesus that they cannot know. In fact Jesus uses very clear emphatic language. He tells them that it is not their place to know -- in modern metaphoric parlance, they didn't have the clearance... The Apostle don't know and can't know because, as Jesus tells them, this information is in the Father's jurisdiction which is the Father's and the Father's alone (ἴδιος).

Why would Jesus instruct them to watch for that which they are not capable of knowing?... especially when in watching they run the serious risk of being deceived... Jesus tells them to be awake (note how the Greek term is used in 1 Thessalonians) to the fact that they do not know ( a perfect indicative form -- a statement of completed state or action... "a given" when spoken by the Divine Incarnate)... be vigilant therefore because you do not know... not vigilant of what's happening to the sun and the moon, but vigilant of your own actions and deeds because you do not and cannot know the hour or season.

Jesus' message is clear... be ready at all times because there is no way you are capable of knowing that which is only the Father's to know. He tells of the servant who cares for the household staff on a regular basis and is the rewarded one, not the one who thinks the master is delayed and takes the opportunity to abuse the staff... because if the master comes home unexpectedly the good servant will never be caught with his pants down whereas the abusive one will.

You wrongly added "or season" above. Jesus said no man can know the Day or Hour, of his coming. He did NOT say, 'no man can know the season.' Paul said we are not in darkness so that we cannot know the season, because, by His light, we CAN know the season. But you have to always look up, to even see the signs, when they appear. Again, don't lump "season" in with "day and hour."

I expect very few Christians will know the season, or recognize the signs. Some of us will.

[Hitch]

Yup that Jesus feller said day er hour,, didnt say nuthin bout week an month...


Get a grip,he said ;IT IS NONE OF YOUR CONSERN

In the strongest possible terms, as he explicity said it is for the FATHER only.

[franktalk]

I expect very few Christians will know the season, or recognize the signs. Some of us will.

You must be looking for a sign to see it as a sign. In this light the Preterist will not be looking.

But in general most people who call themself Christian will be clueless when it comes to prophecy. Even those who study it have wide areas of disagreement.

I thought it was significant when Israel became a nation again, some don't. If we can't even agree on Israel as a nation then everything is up in the air.

[TyRockwell]

Yup that Jesus feller said day er hour,, didnt say nuthin bout week an month...


Get a grip,he said ;IT IS NONE OF YOUR CONSERN

In the strongest possible terms, as he explicity said it is for the FATHER only.

Do you think Apostle Paul was wrong? He was mistaken? He didn't know any better?

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thess 5:1-5 (KJV)

Paul is saying the children of light are not supposed to be in the dark concerning the times and seasons before the day of the Lord and his coming. This does not contradict the "day and hour" statement Jesus made.

Jesus said only the Father knows the EXACT DAY and the EXACT HOUR. This is enough to rule out making predictions. The words "times" and "seasons" are prophetic terminology, of a different class of meaning than, "week" or "month."

You have zero understanding if you think "times and seasons" is somehow like "day and hour."

[RonC]

You wrongly added "or season" above. Jesus said no man can know the Day or Hour, of his coming. He did NOT say, 'no man can know the season.'

In Acts 1:7 Jesus uses the Greek term καιρός which is rendered in the KJV as "season". The same term is used in Mark 13:33 and rendered as "time". In each case context dictated the English rendering. The Greek term is also used in the LXX to render the Hebrew termמועד (Gen 1:14 for instance) which indicates "appointed time" or "season"

Paul said we are not in darkness so that we cannot know the season, because, by His light, we CAN know the season. But you have to always look up, to even see the signs, when they appear. Again, don't lump "season" in with "day and hour."

Please cite the verses from Paul you are referring to.

Jesus seems pretty clear that we cannot know... Note how Jesus makes it clear in Acts 1:7: "it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has put in his own power." Jesus uses the Greek term ἰδίᾳ which indicates private and/or personal as well as separate and/or distinct; Jesus also uses the term ἐξουσία which indicates power and/or jurisdiction. The knowledge of the time and season is not for us to know... it is the distinct/private jurisdiction of the Father. I doubt if Paul disagrees with Jesus, but please cite the verse you are referring to.

I expect very few Christians will know the season, or recognize the signs. Some of us will.

According to Jesus, none will or can.

[TyRockwell]

You must be looking for a sign to see it as a sign. In this light the Preterist will not be looking.

But in general most people who call themself Christian will be clueless when it comes to prophecy. Even those who study it have wide areas of disagreement.

I thought it was significant when Israel became a nation again, some don't. If we can't even agree on Israel as a nation then everything is up in the air.

The significance that Israel is a distinct nation, is that it will be recognizable when "all Israel shall be [is] saved."

Most people who think Hebrews living in the Holy Land is a "sign" are mis-applying scriptures that foretold their return from Babylonian exile. The ones who listened to Jeremiah fled to where-ever they wanted to go. The Israelites who didn't flee, but fought to the end where taken captive to Babylon in 586 BC.

This is why it was said they would return from the nations to which they had been "scattered," as well as from Babylon.

[TyRockwell]

In Acts 1:7 Jesus uses the Greek term καιρός which is rendered in the KJV as "season". The same term is used in Mark 13:33 and rendered as "time". In each case context dictated the English rendering. The Greek term is also used in the LXX to render the Hebrew termמועד (Gen 1:14 for instance) which indicates "appointed time" or "season"

Please cite the verses from Paul you are referring to.

1st Thess 5:1-5

Jesus seems pretty clear that we cannot know... Note how Jesus makes it clear in Acts 1:7: "it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has put in his own power."

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, the ones who had asked the question, not to all Christians of all time, especially not to those living at the time of the signs.

The disciples question, in Acts 1, was not, "when will you return?" It was "Will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Jesus uses the Greek term ἰδίᾳ which indicates private and/or personal as well as separate and/or distinct; Jesus also uses the term ἐξουσία which indicates power and/or jurisdiction. The knowledge of the time and season is not for us to know... it is the distinct/private jurisdiction of the Father. I doubt if Paul disagrees with Jesus, but please cite the verse you are referring to.

According to Jesus, none will or can.

God can reveal anything He wants to reveal. Jesus didn't say the Father would never reveal it.
He said, "No one knows" speaking to them, the ones alive at that time, before the signs.

And Hebrews living in the Holy Land is not a "sign." See my reply to franktalk, post 296.

[RonC]

1st Thess 5:1-5

Thank you. I wanted to make sure.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, the ones who had asked the question, not to all Christians of all time, especially not to those living at the time of the signs.

Do all of Jesus’ words and teachings only have meaning to those to whom he is speaking? Is the same true of Paul's and Peter's and John's words? Do you not see the serious exegetical issues a statement like the one you make creates?

The disciples question, in Acts 1, was not, "when will you return?" It was "Will you now restore the kingdom to Israel?"

Correct. Would I also be correct to say that your position is that Jesus taught that there is a difference in time and season between the Second Coming and the restoration of the Kingdom?

God can reveal anything He wants to reveal. Jesus didn't say the Father would never reveal it. He said, "No one knows" speaking to them, the ones alive at that time, before the signs.

Actually he says “it is not for you to know.” And there is the same issue – if Jesus meant this only for those to whom he was speaking, then one must be consistent and apply the same criteria to Paul, Peter, John, etc.

God can reveal anything He wants to reveal. Jesus didn't say the Father would never reveal it.

So now we base our exegesis upon that which is not said? He also did not say that He would return in the as of RonC… but here I am!

He said, "No one knows" speaking to them, the ones alive at that time, before the signs.

Same issue… using that criteria, the NT is meaningless…meant only for 1st Century Jews!

[TyRockwell]

Thank you. I wanted to make sure.


Do all of Jesus’ words and teachings only have meaning to those to whom he is speaking? Is the same true of Paul's and Peter's and John's words? Do you not see the serious exegetical issues a statement like the one you make creates?

The issue of the Second Coming does not affect one's salvation. It isn't hard to segregate the specialized topic of his return away from all other scriptures, Paul's, Peter's, and John's, that relate to saving faith and how Christians should live their lives.

Correct. Would I also be correct to say that your position is that Jesus taught that there is a difference in time and season between the Second Coming and the restoration of the Kingdom?

There is a difference between the two, but Jesus didn't teach that the kingdom was waiting until his coming.
Jesus taught that the kingdom was already present, and "from the days of John the Baptist, the kingdom of heaven had been forcefully advancing, and forceful people lay hold of it." (NIV)

And, "The kingdom of heaven is inside of you."

The Second Coming is not the 'coming' of the kingdom. It is Jesus' coming back into his kingdom.

[RonC]

The issue of the Second Coming does not affect one's salvation. It isn't hard to segregate the specialized topic of his return away from all other scriptures, Paul's, Peter's, and John's, that relate to saving faith and how Christians should live their lives.

I think that you know that you avoided the question I was posing. If you are interested in a sincere adult exchange, please address all of what I wrote in my last post (#298). If not, I fully understand and wish you only the best. I post this in the spirit of love and in hope that my time will not be wasted.

There is a difference between the two, but Jesus didn't teach that the kingdom was waiting until his coming.
Jesus taught that the kingdom was already present, and "from the days of John the Baptist, the kingdom of heaven had been forcefully advancing, and forceful people lay hold of it." (NIV)

And, "The kingdom of heaven is inside of you."

The Second Coming is not the 'coming' of the kingdom. It is Jesus' coming back into his kingdom.

Here we are close to agreement… There is no question that Jesus indicates what you say about the kingdom… In fact there is a valid argument to be made that he speaks of the Kingdom in past, present and future tenses...

I might have a quibble as to whether Jesus ever left the kingdom and therefore needs to come back to it… but that might prove to be a minor semantic quibble.

Warmest,
RonC