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Thread: Free will.

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    tWebber
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    Free will.

    I know, not that again. This argument/debate is never ending and like the existence of god, there seems to be no evidence to back up the pro-free willers case. But, as I was meditating the other day I noticed, not that I never noticed it before, but I never associated it with the free will issue, but I noticed that the process of meditation itself is a battle of control between the conscious self and the constant onslaught of random thoughts arising from the unconscious. So there does seem to be a divide, where consciousness is not only an after the fact awareness of unconscious decisions, but has an ability in its own right to control or completely shut out unconscious activity. Haven't had a whole lot of time to think it through yet, just wondering what thoughts, pro or con, those of you still interested in this topic might have.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    JimL,

    What is being called "free will" has to do with the fact we humans are self willed beings. Whether that "self will" is really "free" deserves debate. So when I refer to "free will" I am really using it to mean nothing more than being "self willed." [You will not find the term "free will" in the Bible BTW. Or the term "self will." But of persons having a will.]

    Different issues affect one's ability to make choices.
    Last edited by 37818; 04-13-2017 at 06:08 PM.
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  4. #3
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Free will is impossible in a purely materialistic universe with the properties of our own. That is why I consider the existance of free will as evidence that our existance transcends the purely material.

  5. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Free will is impossible in a purely materialistic universe with the properties of our own. That is why I consider the existence of free will as evidence that our existence transcends the purely material.
    First, there is no objective evidence that anything transcends our physical existence.

    Second, your view that a 'purely' materialistic universe is some kind of robotic Newtonian mechanical universe with no possibility of free will, is a self imposed delusion. Based on the objective evidence of science alone the 'determinism' based on natural law is not a robotic Newtonian mechanical universe. The influence Chaos Theory alone the outcomes of any series of events beginning at time t, are variable and only restrained by Natural Laws.

    Third the alternative of Compatibilism provides an adequate alternative of the possibility of free will within a deterministic world. Seer and you may 'hand wave' away the possibility of compatibilism, but it indeed is a possibility.

    You asserted evidence! Please provide the objective evidence, and arguing from supposed ignorance of the 'subjective.'
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017 at 07:47 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    First, there is no objective evidence that anything transcends our physical existence.
    show me a photo of a thought. Show me an emotion.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post

    Third the alternative of Compatibilism provides an adequate alternative of the possibility of free will within a deterministic world. Seer and you may 'hand wave' away the possibility of compatibilism, but it indeed is a possibility.

    Nonsense Shuny, the free will of Compatibilism is not free. It is just as determined as anything else. To say that something is both free and determined is a contradiction.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    show me a photo of a thought. Show me an emotion.
    This is not the basis for the claim of objective evidence by Darth. It is vague argument from supposed argument from ignorance as to what you believve is a lack of evidence. This a fallacy big time! By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017 at 07:49 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #8
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I know, not that again. This argument/debate is never ending and like the existence of god, there seems to be no evidence to back up the pro-free willers case. But, as I was meditating the other day I noticed, not that I never noticed it before, but I never associated it with the free will issue, but I noticed that the process of meditation itself is a battle of control between the conscious self and the constant onslaught of random thoughts arising from the unconscious. So there does seem to be a divide, where consciousness is not only an after the fact awareness of unconscious decisions, but has an ability in its own right to control or completely shut out unconscious activity. Haven't had a whole lot of time to think it through yet, just wondering what thoughts, pro or con, those of you still interested in this topic might have.
    That is what I have been saying for years Jim. I believe the conscious self plays an important causal role. For instance - you have two competing thoughts - I would really like that extra piece of cake, but I really need to watch my diet. I believe the conscious self, rationally, decides between the options then acts.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is not the basis fro the objective evidence. By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
    Where is your evidence that Compatibilism is correct? BTW, no you can not see thoughts. You only see neurological activity.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is not the basis fro the objective evidence. By the Way, emotions and thoughts can be observed and identified based on the neurological activity of the brain. There is absolutely no objective evidence that they are based on anything else
    When you imagine a red bicycle and can see it in your mind, can you show me where is exists other than in your mind? All there is physically is at most some electrical activity in your brain. There is no bicycle there. No color red. It has absolutely no physical existence.

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