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Thread: Free will.

  1. #91
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny you keep repeating your self with out answering the question. You said that all outcomes, including "human choices" were fixed and determined. Where does free will come in, even the potential of free will? How can anything we do be free if all our choices are fixed and determined by the laws of nature. You are contradicting yourself - again....
    Seer I do not think it is productive to continue our discussion on determinism, free will and compatibiism, because your agenda is entrenched and uncompromising in the Libertarian Free-Will of Armianianism that is described as follows:

    Source: https://www.theopedia.com/arminianism


    Libertarian free will

    A key tenet of Arminianism is libertarian free will. This means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This view allows no room for discussion of any alternatives. You fundamentally reject the Methodological Naturalism, which at its foundation is supported by 'scientific determinism' concerning our physical world. This is indeed a far to extreme view of 'free will' that cannot be reconciled with the reality of the human journey in the real world.

    The Baha'i scripture believes in free will within the limits of natural laws. The degree of free will and the what is limited by natural laws is not yet fully determined by science. What you refuse to acknowledge is the Baha'i Principle of the harmony of science and religion, where the interpretation and understanding of scripture concerning the nature of our physical existence, and the nature and degree of free will choices in our physical world would be determined in harmony with the sciences.

    The result seer is we are worlds appart on belief in this area and not reconcilable. Likewise, considering the belief system of libertarian free will there is no resolution of your disagreement with Tassman and other materialists.

    And you too dismiss science when it suits your religion - do you want to over the Adam thing again?
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post434013
    No, and as usual you are selective in your citations concerning the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith without considering the whole of the understanding of Baha'i scripture.

    Your view toward science and the Baha'i Faith is a one way hostile uncompromising view based on your religious agenda.

    There is no grounds for a dialogue here.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-20-2017 at 11:44 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #92
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Seer I do not think it is productive to continue our discussion on determinism, free will and compatibiism, because your agenda is entrenched and uncompromising in the Libertarian Free-Will of Armianianism that is described as follows...
    That is nonsense Shuny and you know it. It was you who said that all outcomes including human choices were fixed and determined - not me. And you have yet to offer, though I have repeatedly asked for, an explanation of how can any form of freedom or freewill could be possible if all our choices are fixed and determined. And on top of this you still have not offered a working definition of what you believe constitutes free will. You prattle on about free will but it seems that you have no idea what that is.

    No, and as usual you are selective in your citations concerning the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith without considering the whole of the understanding of Baha'i scripture.
    The fact is, your religion teaches that Adam is the father of all mankind. And that Adam lived about 6,000 years ago. That contradicts popular science. Whether you want to admit it or not.
    Last edited by seer; 04-21-2017 at 12:10 AM.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  3. #93
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is nonsense Shuny and you know it. It was you who said that all outcomes including human choices were fixed and determined - not me. And you have yet to offer, though I have repeatedly asked for, an explanation of how can any form of freedom or freewill could be possible if all our choices are fixed and determined. And on top of this you still have not offered a working definition of what you believe constitutes free will. You prattle on about free will but it seems that you have no idea what that is.
    Your position is stoically and uncompromisingly clear, 'my way or the highway,' and basically reject science.

    Source: https://www.theopedia.com/arminianism



    Libertarian free will

    A key tenet of Arminianism is libertarian free will. This means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #94
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Your position is stoically and uncompromisingly clear, 'my way or the highway,' and basically reject science.

    Source: https://www.theopedia.com/arminianism



    Libertarian free will

    A key tenet of Arminianism is libertarian free will. This means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice.

    © Copyright Original Source


    Yes Shuny, I hold to LFW, I have been clear about that. So what is your definition of free will and how is it possible if as you said that all outcomes and human choices are fixed and determined? Where is the freedom in that model? You have dodged both these questions time and time again. And I don't reject science, as an Electronic Technician I used electrical principles every day. But I don't believe that science has all the answers, or that it is always right - do you? And I certainly don't believe that human beings can be reduced to the purely materialistic. I believe in the immaterial soul - as you do, and that the soul plays a real role in our thoughts and actions, as your own religion teaches. No Shuny, this is about the fact that you have no working definition of free will and even if you did you know that you can not reconcile that with your claim that all human actions are determined and fixed. So you hand wave and bluster - which is your modus operandi when you are backed into the corner.
    Last edited by seer; 04-21-2017 at 11:44 AM.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  5. #95
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Yes Shuny, I hold to LFW, I have been clear about that. So what is your definition of free will and how is it possible if as you said that all outcomes and human choices are fixed and determined? Where is the freedom in that model? You have dodged both these questions time and time again.
    What you have consistently asserted is the existence of LFW. What you have NOT explained how LFW can override the unbroken chain of prior occurrences and experiences that inform our subconscious. Until you do this your argument is faith-based gibberish.

    And I don't reject science,
    You "reject science" whenever it conflicts with your religious presuppositions. You are a prime example of religious obscurantism.

    I don't believe that science has all the answers, or that it is always right - do you? And I certainly don't believe that human beings can be reduced to the purely materialistic. I believe in the immaterial soul
    The mind and consciousness can be reduced to the neurological function of the brain and nervous system. If you "believe in an immaterial soul" you must explain how such an entity can interact with the material brain. What's the point of nexus? Until you do this your argument will be treated as the faith-based gibberish that it is.

    this is about the fact that you have no working definition of free will
    No YOU have "no working definition of free will", merely a logically incoherent assertion of its existence.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. #96
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You "reject science" whenever it conflicts with your religious presuppositions. You are a prime example of religious obscurantism.
    The LFW definition I cited was clear. It rejects 'determinism' of any kind in terms of the human will is unrestrained by any outside influence even natural laws. He strongly rejected methodological naturalism considering it the same as philosophical naturalism. Without 'scientific determinism' based on natural law and philosophy of methodological naturalism the result is the 'rejection of science. This is not only from seer's perspective, but many if not most Christians that 'reject' or qualify the limits of science giving that their beliefs can trump science in one way or another.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. Amen Tassman amen'd this post.
  8. #97
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The LFW definition I cited was clear. It rejects 'determinism' of any kind in terms of the human will is unrestrained by any outside influence even natural laws. He strongly rejected methodological naturalism considering it the same as philosophical naturalism. Without 'scientific determinism' based on natural law and philosophy of methodological naturalism the result is the 'rejection of science. This is not only from seer's perspective, but many if not most Christians that 'reject' or qualify the limits of science giving that their beliefs can trump science in one way or another.
    Yes, just as your religious beliefs about Adam trumps science. That he is the father of mankind and lived about 6,000 yeas ago. And your own religion teaches that we have an immaterial soul. And that the immaterial soul influences our thoughts and acts and is "entirely out of the order of the physical creation." Stop being a hypocrite Shuny.

    The essential identity of every human being is a rational and immortal soul, which is “entirely out of the order of the physical creation.” Bahá’u’lláh uses the metaphor of the sun to explain the relationship between the soul and the body: “The soul of man is the sun by which his body is illumined, and from which it draweth its sustenance, and should be so regarded.”

    It is through the exercise of the powers of the soul that human progress is achieved. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has said that the soul “can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul.”

    http://www.bahai.org/beliefs/life-spirit/human-soul/
    Last edited by seer; 04-24-2017 at 01:17 PM.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object.” C.S. Lewis

  9. #98
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Easy, the 'determinism' of decision making process that is determined by natural law limits the possible individual choices, but does not prevent a possible range of choices in a human chain of cause and events of the choices of the will that are not limited by the "fixed" limits of natural law. In compatibilism 'moral responsibiity' is a factor that influences the decision making process and determinism.

    Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/


    Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Despite your assertions and objections based on your agenda, there is a significant section in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Compatibilism, with many academic references that support the 'possibility' of free will in compatibiism in the human decision making process. If you want to deal with a more academic firmer foundation for this read that.
    Compatibilism isn't related to degrees of determinism. On compatibilism, we're just as determined as we would be under hard (incompatibilist) determinsim. Compatibilism is the idea that, even if we are completely determined, we can still bear moral responsibilities for at least some of our actions.

  10. #99
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It doesn't mean!?!?!!? nonsense! It fact of reality is that given any given point in time t there is obviously more than one possible choice of human decisions, and in nature more than one outcome in any given sequence of events. Your actual range of choices is determined, and not your only choice is determined.

    It is not advisable for you to speak for JimL. I would like him to respond if he disagrees.
    It sounds like you're arguing for libertarianism and not compatibilism. A libertarian is happy to concede that we are highly constrained by the past and by natural laws when we decide and act but that at least in some cases the past and natural laws do not necessitate what we decide.

  11. #100
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    It sounds like you're arguing for libertarianism and not compatibilism. A libertarian is happy to concede that we are highly constrained by the past and by natural laws when we decide and act but that at least in some cases the past and natural laws do not necessitate what we decide.
    It sounds like!?!?!?!? Wowssers!

    Very confusing and does not reflect anything I have ever expressed in this thread nor an other.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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