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Cogito ergo sum

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Free will.

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  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I actually do have to explain it, and it is best to just research the reference I have given at: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/ You, of course take the extreme position, and do not agree, but nonetheless it is to a large extent your responsibility to do your own homework and understand the philosophy of comaptibilism.
    I was simply explaining it to seer what the difference is, because like you he takes a extreme view, and is not open to understanding other possible view points.
    You don't know me shunya, I don't take an extreme view, I am neither a hard determinist nor a free will liberterian. I'm a fence sitter myself, but not in the sense that I am a compatibilist, but in the sense that I haven't quite made up my mind which of the former two choices are valid. Go back and read the O.P. and see who wrote it.




    Actually the reference and the source goes into detail as to the the nature of free will and determinism determined by antecedent conditions.

    The 'potential' free will in our choices only exists within a frame work of the factors where determinism is determined by antecedent conditions. It is not the extreme black versus white situation of all free will versus no free will. Antecedent conditions that limit free will are human instinct, cultural controls and the priority of the desire for 'sense of belonging.' The reference emphasizes 'Moral Responsibility' that is an area of human choice of free will exist. Free will is still limited in Moral Responsibility,' because instinct and cultural factors limit the choices, nonetheless in compatabilism there is the 'potential' of free will within a range of possible choices. To add, instinct to survive remains the primary motive for 'Moral Responsibility.

    I also believe that in the choices of human intellect and the advancement of the sciences there is the potential of free will in the natural human curiosity to know and explore things to advance our knowledge, and in general civilization. In this view our potential of free will choices are likely indeed limited, but not mechanistically predetermined.

    I definitely consider strict determinism is too robotic and does not reflect the reality of the potential of a diversity in human choices over time.
    Compatibilism then is just another way of explaining that we do in fact possess free will, so long as we are conscious of the choices we make. We are only determined in so far as we are ruled by our unconscious impulses which in turn are ruled by antecedent causes. If that is compatibilism, then I would have to say that I fit into that category. But I don't think that compatibilism is a thing, free will, if it exists, then it exists, it is only limited in so far as we choose not to act consciously. I believe that free will is somehow tied into the degree to which we maintain consciousness of our choices and actions. If you read the O.P, you will understand that that is where I was coming from in the first place.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      You don't know me shunya, I don't take an extreme view, I am neither a hard determinist nor a free will liberterian. I'm a fence sitter myself, but not in the sense that I am a compatibilist, but in the sense that I haven't quite made up my mind which of the former two choices are valid. Go back and read the O.P. and see who wrote it.

      Compatibilism then is just another way of explaining that we do in fact possess free will, so long as we are conscious of the choices we make. We are only determined in so far as we are ruled by our unconscious impulses which in turn are ruled by antecedent causes. If that is compatibilism, then I would have to say that I fit into that category. But I don't think that compatibilism is a thing, free will, if it exists, then it exists, it is only limited in so far as we choose not to act consciously. I believe that free will is somehow tied into the degree to which we maintain consciousness of our choices and actions. If you read the O.P, you will understand that that is where I was coming from in the first place.
      Of course, compatibilism is not a 'thing' your sounding ridiculous.

      I will have to think about this before I respond completely. I disagree with the bold. We may be conscious of our choices, but still we not make the choice completely of our own free will even though we believe we do. Most choices we consciously make are still in some way limited by antecedent causes.

      Most people believe they choose their faith of their own free will, but in reality most choose their faith because of antecedent causes.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Of course, compatibilism is not a 'thing' your sounding ridiculous.

        I will have to think about this before I respond completely. I disagree with the bold. We may be conscious of our choices, but still we not make the choice completely of our own free will even though we believe we do. Most choices we consciously make are still in some way limited by antecedent causes.

        Most people believe they choose their faith of their own free will, but in reality most choose their faith because of antecedent causes.
        Well, we either have the capacity to freely choose or we don't, you can't logically argue that we both have that capacity and don't have that capacity at the same time. Having free will is not the same thing as utilizing free will, and not utilizing free will doesn't mean that we don't have free will. I have not read a great deal concerning compatibilism, but I've yet to hear a cogent explanation of exactly what it means. The very idea of limited free will is a contradiction, it doesn't make sense, because if we have it, then we have it, end of story.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          Well, we either have the capacity to freely choose or we don't, you can't logically argue that we both have that capacity and don't have that capacity at the same time. Having free will is not the same thing as utilizing free will, and not utilizing free will doesn't mean that we don't have free will. I have not read a great deal concerning compatibilism, but I've yet to hear a cogent explanation of exactly what it means. The very idea of limited free will is a contradiction, it doesn't make sense, because if we have it, then we have it, end of story.
          Were back to your black or white, libertarian free will or no free will, which is the reason like seer you will not be able to understand compatibilism, and having free will by degrees of freedom.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-20-2017, 07:18 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Were back to your black or white, libertarian free will or no free will, which is the reason like seer you will not be able to understand compatibilism, and having free will by degrees of freedom.
            Not exactly shunya, there may be limited choices, so to speak, but the freedom to choose amongst them can't also be defined as limited, else it isn't free. So I'm just trying to understand what you mean by degrees of free will with respect to your understanding of compatibilism.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Not exactly shunya, there may be limited choices, so to speak, but the freedom to choose amongst them can't also be defined as limited, else it isn't free. So I'm just trying to understand what you mean by degrees of free will with respect to your understanding of compatibilism.
              I'm a bit doubtful about the logic of compatibilism to be honest, but philosopher Dan Dennett sees determinism as compatible with free will and refers to "wiggle room" and "elbow room". His solution is largely a semantic one designed to protect our feeling of 'agency' and the illusion of free-will, which enables us to make choices and moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                I'm a bit doubtful about the logic of compatibilism to be honest, but philosopher Dan Dennett sees determinism as compatible with free will and refers to "wiggle room" and "elbow room". His solution is largely a semantic one designed to protect our feeling of 'agency' and the illusion of free-will, which enables us to make choices and moral judgements based on seemingly “freely-chosen” motives.
                Right, thats about what I had assumed about the idea of compatibilism. If you think about it, the terms are so contradictory, how could there be any real compatiblity about them. I'm still on the fence myself, not sure, but what I wrote in the O.P. now has me leaning closer to the free will side. The fact that one can consciously control or inhibit their unconscious impulses, which themselves must be determined, has made me question determinism.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  Right, thats about what I had assumed about the idea of compatibilism. If you think about it, the terms are so contradictory, how could there be any real compatiblity about them. I'm still on the fence myself, not sure, but what I wrote in the O.P. now has me leaning closer to the free will side. The fact that one can consciously control or inhibit their unconscious impulses, which themselves must be determined, has made me question determinism.
                  The view of compatbilism is not that one can consciously control or inhibit unconscious impulses. The view is that our unconcious impulses and antecedent causes can allow for a range of choices in the outcome.

                  For the most poart share Dan Dennett's view of compatabilism.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-22-2017, 02:55 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    The view of compatbilism is not that one can consciously control or inhibit unconscious impulses. The view is that our unconcious impulses and antecedent causes can allow for a range of choices in the outcome.

                    For the most poart share Dan Dennett's view of compatabilism.
                    There being a range of choices is not whats in question with respect to the will, there are always a range of choices in front of you, the question is whether you are free to choose any amongst them or whether you are determined to choose only the one.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      There being a range of choices is not whats in question with respect to the will, there are always a range of choices in front of you, the question is whether you are free to choose any amongst them or whether you are determined to choose only the one.
                      Good question! Given the same choices in many situations different people make different choices. There is no indication that these choices are always forced to one option by antecedent causes. There is no evidence that humans are so robotic in the choices.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Good question! Given the same choices in many situations different people make different choices. There is no indication that these choices are always forced to one option by antecedent causes. There is no evidence that humans are so robotic in the choices.
                        Then all our choices are not determined, I'm good with that.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Then all our choices are not determined, I'm good with that.
                          I never claimed this was the case, nor does the philosophy of compatibilism.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            There being a range of choices is not whats in question with respect to the will, there are always a range of choices in front of you, the question is whether you are free to choose any amongst them or whether you are determined to choose only the one.
                            Well, to side with shunya. We have the illusion of free-will, which is all “free-will” can actually mean, and we have available choices. These, in and of themselves, form an integral part of the causal chain which comprises ‘determinism’. So our choices are not beyond our control, as per fatalism. We have a say in them.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Well, to side with shunya. We have the illusion of free-will, which is all “free-will” can actually mean, and we have available choices. These, in and of themselves, form an integral part of the causal chain which comprises ‘determinism’. So our choices are not beyond our control, as per fatalism. We have a say in them.
                              Sure, but I'm sure you'd agree that the illusion of free will is not the same thing as actually having free will. When we speak of free will, we do not mean to infer by that term that we are under the illusion of possessing it. I don't think it a valid argument to say that we are both determined, while arguing also that our choices are not beyond our control. Those a contradictory arguments it seems to me.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Sure, but I'm sure you'd agree that the illusion of free will is not the same thing as actually having free will. When we speak of free will, we do not mean to infer by that term that we are under the illusion of possessing it. I don't think it a valid argument to say that we are both determined, while arguing also that our choices are not beyond our control. Those a contradictory arguments it seems to me.
                                I think you misread Tassman's post when he said, 'We have the illusion of free-will, which is all “free-will” can actually mean, and we have available choices.'

                                We may believe or feel that we make 'free will' choices all the time, but in reality we do not know whether our decisions are always free will choices, or to some degree from a limited set of choices, but to a degree our choices are made from a range of available choices, therefore a degree of free will.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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