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Thread: Free will.

  1. #11
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Shuny, the free will of Compatibilism is not free. It is just as determined as anything else. To say that something is both free and determined is a contradiction.
    Assertions based on an agenda are a 'hand wave' airball, and do not provide any basis for your rejection of compatibilism.

    Waiting for you to come up with something else beside a Royal Decree of nonsense, which is meaningless.

    I need a substantive argument against compatibilism.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is what I have been saying for years Jim. I believe the conscious self plays an important causal role. For instance - you have two competing thoughts - I would really like that extra piece of cake, but I really need to watch my diet. I believe the conscious self, rationally, decides between the options then acts.
    . . . and the conscious self may be based on the neurological functions of the brain.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #13
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Assertions based on an agenda are a 'hand wave' airball, and do not provide any basis for your rejection of compatibilism.

    Waiting for you to come up with something else beside a Royal Decree of nonsense, which is meaningless.

    I need a substantive argument against compatibilism.
    Then tell me how we can be both free and determined. And then please define free will. Let's see if you have a clue.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    . . . and the conscious self may be based on the neurological functions of the brain.
    That is correct, the self is an emergent phenomenon.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  5. #15
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    When you imagine a red bicycle and can see it in your mind, can you show me where is exists other than in your mind? All there is physically is at most some electrical activity in your brain. There is no bicycle there. No color red. It has absolutely no physical existence.
    Exactly...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Then tell me how we can be both free and determined. And then please define free will. Let's see if you have a clue.
    Easy, the 'determinism' of decision making process that is determined by natural law limits the possible individual choices, but does not prevent a possible range of choices in a human chain of cause and events of the choices of the will that are not limited by the "fixed" limits of natural law. In compatibilism 'moral responsibiity' is a factor that influences the decision making process and determinism.

    Source: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/


    Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Despite your assertions and objections based on your agenda, there is a significant section in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Compatibilism, with many academic references that support the 'possibility' of free will in compatibiism in the human decision making process. If you want to deal with a more academic firmer foundation for this read that.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017 at 01:36 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #17
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Easy the determinism of decision making process that is determined by natural law limits the possible individual choices, but does not prevent a possible range of choices in a human chain of cause and events of the choices of the will that are not limited by the "fixed" limits of natural law.
    So you agree that we have the power of contrary choice? That in most situations we are free to choose A or B?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

  8. #18
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So you agree that we have the power of contrary choice?
    Compatibilism supports this possibility

    That in most situations we are free to choose A or B?
    Your statement of 'most' is a questionably subjective value judgment of the degree of possible human free will, which I will not comment on.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-13-2017 at 01:42 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That is what I have been saying for years Jim. I believe the conscious self plays an important causal role. For instance - you have two competing thoughts - I would really like that extra piece of cake, but I really need to watch my diet. I believe the conscious self, rationally, decides between the options then acts.
    Yes, you have been arguing this point, but always, I believe, from the perspective of how it "feels" to you, or that its what you believe. That kind of argument is insufficient in derailing the deterministic, free will is an illusion argument, which is based on physics, simply because that kind of argument isn't based on anything other than "feelings." We all "feel" as though we have free will, but there seems to have been no evidence that could validate those "feelings" we have of freedom to be correct. What I'm really interested in now is what the believers in determinism think, or how they might argue against free will when in meditation it seems as though it, i.e. a free and conscious will, can be summoned in order to battle with and defeat the unconscious activity of the brain?

  10. #20
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Compatibilism supports this possibility
    I just defined libertarian free will, are you saying that Compatibilism supports this?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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