Free will.

[Tassman]

I have always been in agreement with the logic of your argument concerning this Tass, though not convinced or comfortable with it, but I'd be interested to know how you would respond to the OP? How can consciousness do battle with the unconscious if both are determined?

We have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean in a determined universe. Acting as if we possess it, whilst acknowledging that we don’t in actuality, is the only possible course of action for acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on “freely-chosen” motives.

[shunyadragon]

We have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean in a determined universe. Acting as if we possess it, whilst acknowledging that we don’t in actuality, is the only possible course of action for acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on “freely-chosen” motives.

I agree that the belief in 'free will' decision making process may be to a certain extent an 'illusion,' but the potential of a degree of free will cannot be assumed to be entirely an 'illusion.' The problem, of course, iin libertarian free will is that it cannot be assumed that humans can know and mostly control the possibility of 'contrary' decisions. 'Contrary' decisions are indeed possible, but those that advocate libertarian free will have no basis for claiming it is the will of the person knowing and making the 'contrary' that is responsible for the choice.

The problem with seer and others who take certain parts of references out of context describing 'determinism' as a robotic Newtonian world where every choice and outcome of every event from any time t is specifically 'fixed' as proposed by LaPlace over 200 years ago. Science has long since gone beyond LaPlace, but science is based on the modern concept of determinism where all possible outcomes of natural events, and in terms of 'human will' are 'determined' by the limits of natural law. If this were not true the Methodological Naturalism would not work. LaPlace and those, like seer, who advocate the only alternative to libertarian free will is a rigid LaPlace determinism neglecting the obvious nature of our existence is fractal (Chaos Theory), which produces a range of possible outcomes, that cannot be specifically determined, but remain 'determined' by the limits of natural law.

I believe this is the reason I choose compatibilism as a viable option to describe the 'potential of free will' within the context of determinism based on natural law is best option.

[seer]

Like Genesis there were other humans living on the earth. Again, the Baha'i writings describe many cycles of Revelation among humans at least hundred' of thousands before Adam and Eve. As with the the Bible, science and the scripture of the Baha'i Faith your agenda dictates a selective citation of references as literal representing how they 'force fit' what you believe. Everyone here is used to it.

I will ask you again Shuny, do you agree with the teachings of your religion that all living human beings TODAY are descendants of Adam? Yes or no?

Definition provided. This reference was simply an example of how determinism is used and understood in science.

No it wasn't! We are speaking of determinism as it effects the will of man. That is what this discussion is about. Nothing in your link even approached that! Not only have you not offered a definition of determinism in the context of this discussion, you have failed time and time again to offer a clear definition of free will. So when you claim that determinism is compatible with free will we can dismiss that assertion since it is painfully obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[shunyadragon]

I will ask you again Shuny, do you agree with the teachings of your religion that all living human beings TODAY are descendants of Adam? Yes or no?

Warped loaded statement from the minefield. I have described my position and the position of the Baha'i Faith numerous times. Your view is deceptive and dishonest, and based on a selective reference to support your religious agenda.

No it wasn't! We are speaking of determinism as it effects the will of man. That is what this discussion is about. Nothing in your link even approached that! Not only have you not offered a definition of determinism in the context of this discussion, you have failed time and time again to offer a clear definition of free will. So when you claim that determinism is compatible with free will we can dismiss that assertion since it is painfully obvious that you have no idea what you are talking about.

The concept of determinism as defined and describes applies across the board in all aspects of nature of our physical existence including human will without exception.

[seer]

I believe this is the reason I choose compatibilism as a viable option to describe the 'potential of free will' within the context of determinism based on natural law is best option.

Until you define free will you are just speaking gibberish.

[seer]

Warped loaded statement from the minefield. I have described my position and the position of the Baha'i Faith numerous times. Your view is deceptive and dishonest, and based on a selective reference to support your religious agenda.

See Shuny, you can not even give a straight answer: do you agree with the teachings of your religion that all living human beings TODAY are descendants of Adam? Yes or no?

The fact is Shuny that you are embarrassed with this teaching of your religion, and you know it does not line up with science.

The concept of determinism as defined and describes applies across the board in all aspects of nature of our physical existence including human will without exception.

And? How does that line up with determinism being compatible with free will? I mean in all these posts you have not offered a working definition of what constitutes free will. So how can we possibly know if they are compatible if you have no idea what freedom is?

[shunyadragon]

I will ask you again Shuny, do you agree with the teachings of your religion that all living human beings TODAY are descendants of Adam? Yes or no?

Like Genesis there were other humans living on the earth. Again, the Baha'i writings describe many cycles of Revelation among humans at least hundred' of thousands before Adam and Eve. As with the the Bible, science and the scripture of the Baha'i Faith your agenda dictates a selective citation of references as literal representing how they 'force fit' what you believe. Everyone here is used to it.

[JimL]

Like Genesis there were other humans living on the earth. Again, the Baha'i writings describe many cycles of Revelation among humans at least hundred' of thousands before Adam and Eve. As with the the Bible, science and the scripture of the Baha'i Faith your agenda dictates a selective citation of references as literal representing how they 'force fit' what you believe. Everyone here is used to it.

You're obfuscating shunya. Thats not a direct answer to seer's question. He didn't ask you if there were hundreds of thousands of humans existing prior to Adam, he asked if, according to your religion, all human beings today are direct descendents of Adam. There are only 2 alternatives, either yes they are, or no they are not.

[JimL]

We have the illusion of free-will which is all “free-will” can actually mean in a determined universe. Acting as if we possess it, whilst acknowledging that we don’t in actuality, is the only possible course of action for acquiring knowledge and making moral judgements based on “freely-chosen” motives.

Yes, i understand Tass, thats the determinists conclusion, but I was hoping you could answer directly to the OP. This is something that came to me during meditation. I noticed that I was consciously repressing the constant barrage of my unconscious thoughts. Just wondering if you can explain that away as deterministic somehow if consciousness itself is only an after effect of unconscious activity?

[shunyadragon]

You're obfuscating shunya. Thats not a direct answer to seer's question. He didn't ask you if there were hundreds of thousands of humans existing prior to Adam, he asked if, according to your religion, all human beings today are direct descendents of Adam. There are only 2 alternatives, either yes they are, or no they are not.

I have answered his question repeatedly in previous posts. NO THEY ARE NOT!!!!!!!!

Have you read the previous posts!

Are you become an idiot TROLL like seer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like Genesis there were other humans living on the earth. Again, the Baha'i writings describe many cycles of Revelation among humans at least hundred' of thousands before Adam and Eve. As with the the Bible, science, and the scripture of the Baha'i Faith seer's agenda dictates a selective citation of references as literal representing how seer 'force fit' what seer believes. Everyone here is used to his nonsense. Have you failed to see this!!!!

Every Adam in a great cycle of thousands of years is the Father of Revelation for all of humanity.

[shunyadragon]

And? How does that line up with determinism being compatible with free will? I mean in all these posts you have not offered a working definition of what constitutes free will. So how can we possibly know if they are compatible if you have no idea what freedom is?

Determinism is that nothing involving the chains of events in nature nor the decisions of human will may violate the laws of nature. Natural Laws fixes the outcomes of all possible chains of natural events and the choices of human will.

[siam]

I know, not that again. This argument/debate is never ending and like the existence of god, there seems to be no evidence to back up the pro-free willers case. But, as I was meditating the other day I noticed, not that I never noticed it before, but I never associated it with the free will issue, but I noticed that the process of meditation itself is a battle of control between the conscious self and the constant onslaught of random thoughts arising from the unconscious. So there does seem to be a divide, where consciousness is not only an after the fact awareness of unconscious decisions, but has an ability in its own right to control or completely shut out unconscious activity. Haven't had a whole lot of time to think it through yet, just wondering what thoughts, pro or con, those of you still interested in this topic might have.

Another way to look at it may be to consider that of 2 "will"? ---and instead of a "battle of control", that of "oneness"/surrender?
Our biological bodies have 2 "wills" one is the autonomous/involuntary and the other is voluntary...similarly, there is Nature's "will"/God's will/Universal energy, etc and human will. If we assume that the nature of human will is that it can align with Nature/God's will or it can rebel against it, then we can say that oneness/surrender is to align with God's will and the opposite is the exercise of human will....?...

Therefore, we struggle to assert "our" will during meditation by trying to overcome the wandering of the mind. If we were to "surrender"---what some call "be present"---then we would allow these thoughts to arise, be aware of them and let them go.(...become the observer) As Aristotle explained, excellence is a matter of habit---and by training our mind at its own pace---we allow Nature's will/God's will/Energy to work rather than struggling to control. In this way, the conscious and the unconscious work in partnership/harmony.....likewise the greater "Will" and human will can work in partnership/harmony....?

The Tao te Ching advises

Heaven is eternal, earth everlasting.
They endure this way because they do not live for themselves.

In the same way, the wise person puts himself last
and thereby finds himself first;

Holds himself outside,
and thereby remains in the center;

Abandons himself,
and is thereby fulfilled.

To translate---the Universe has no "will" of its own and therefore automatically is one with the Greater "Will", thus, when "we" put aside our ego/self (control)---we too can become "one" with the Greater Will in harmony.
on the other hand, the more we "control"/assert our will (rebel)---the further away we become from the Greater Will......and one could say, that is the essence of the story of Adam too...?....

[Tassman]

Yes, i understand Tass, thats the determinists conclusion, but I was hoping you could answer directly to the OP. This is something that came to me during meditation. I noticed that I was consciously repressing the constant barrage of my unconscious thoughts. Just wondering if you can explain that away as deterministic somehow if consciousness itself is only an after effect of unconscious activity?

Yes it’s deterministic but the decisions we make under the illusion of free will seem to be our own, undetermined choices and we make them as if they were ‘free-will’ decisions, even though (if we think about it at all) we intellectually acknowledge that they can’t be. This does not necessarily mean we have no influence on the future and its events. But such influence depends upon on present circumstances and the past events lodged in our subconscious and how they influence our conscious minds. How could it be otherwise?

[seer]

I have answered his question repeatedly in previous posts. NO THEY ARE NOT!!!!!!!!

Then you deny the teaching of your religion that clearly says that we (humans) receive our physical nature from Adam. And that Adam had neither father or mother. So Adam was a special creation, not in the lineage of the humans that came before and we get our physical nature from Adam.

If being without a father is a virtue, Adam is greater and more excellent than all the Prophets and Messengers, for He had neither father nor mother." (Some Answered Questions, p. 89)

"O handmaid of God! It is with the Lord Christ even as with Adam. Did the first human being who came into existence on this earth have a father or mother? It is certain that he had neither. But Christ lacked only a father." (Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha 139:6)

For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.

Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-30.html

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/S...=highlight#gr1

[seer]

Determinism is that nothing involving the chains of events in nature nor the decisions of human will may violate the laws of nature. Natural Laws fixes the outcomes of all possible chains of natural events and the choices of human will.

So all our choices are determined. Then in what way are they free? How can they be both determined and free if all our choices are fixed by the laws of nature?