Originally posted by seer
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Free will.
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Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-16-2017, 08:47 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe determinism underlies everything as the basis of science and natural law. but still in the realm of determinism I believe humans are capable of a range of free will decisions without violating natural law. I believe this is a form of compatibilism. Libertarianism would reject any determinist limits on human choice and decision making as seer does.
Why do you think that libertarianism would "reject any determinist limits on human choice and decision making"? That has nothing to do with any version of libertarianism I'm familiar with.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Postyou accepted the standard definition of libertarian free will I posted.
And I quote myself
So you agree that we have the power of contrary choice? That in most situations we are free to choose A or B?
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo I did not, I gave you my definition early on, the power of contrary choice in most situations,
And I quote myself
As you describe it above it represents a form of compatibiism where there is a degree of determinism in some situations of human decision making, which is different from the standard definition provided.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-18-2017, 06:54 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostIf your version of freedom has nothing to do with metaphysics, then it's only situational or circumstantial freedom, not actual freedom where people, at least occasionally, have genuine alternatives open to them. Since the "free will" problem is essentially a metaphysical problem, then it seems that the freedom entailed by that problem would have to be metaphysical as well. Compatibilism seems like a dodge or an evasion. It could be that indeterminism could blur the boundaries between determinism and freedom. But I think it comes down to whether one thinks it's possible that people can act because of their beliefs and desires but where their acting is not necessitated by the past and the laws. If no, then you're a determinist. If yes, you're a libertarian. Compatibilism seems like little more than a legalistic gloss on determinism.
Read: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/ as previous cited for the philosophical reality that there are options where 'compatibilism' allows for degrees of free will.
Why do you think that libertarianism would "reject any determinist limits on human choice and decision making"? That has nothing to do with any version of libertarianism I'm familiar with.
. . . and seer's claim, which is a bit of undefined hedge, that:
Originally posted by seerSo you agree that we have the power of contrary choice? That in most situations we are free to choose A or B?Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-18-2017, 06:55 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThere is an unresolved fog index in your qualification 'the power of contrary choice in most cases.' What cases would humans not have contrary choice?
As you describe it above it represents a form of compatibiism where there is a degree of determinism in some situations of human decision making, which is different from the standard definition provided.Last edited by seer; 07-18-2017, 07:52 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo it is not, men are not free to do anything they wish. I can not flap my arms and fly. And humans can have the power of contrary choice in may different situations. It is my decision to respond to you here, or not, for instance. Unless you believe that I was determined to.
The concepts as libertarian, compatibilism and determinism deal with the human decision making processes and not breaking the laws of nature such as gravity by willful actions.
Again please address the question in your statement of belief if it is other than how libertarianism is defined in theopedia.
There is an unresolved fog index in your qualification 'the power of contrary choice in most cases.' What cases would humans not have contrary choice?
As you describe it above it represents a form of compatibiism where there is a degree of determinism in some situations of human decision making, which is different from the standard definition provided.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain, again and again the red herring that humans can defy gravity and the laws of nature by flapping their arms and flying is a canard and does not address the question of free will.
The concepts as libertarian, compatibilism and determinism deal with the human decision making processes and not breaking the laws of nature such as gravity by willful actions.
Again please address the question in your statement of belief if it is other than how libertarianism is defined in theopedia.
There is an unresolved fog index in your qualification 'the power of contrary choice in most cases.' What cases would humans not have contrary choice?
It is not a fog Shuny, it is a fact. If a human had a brain injury or brain disease for instance that may prevent the ability to choose otherwise.
As you describe it above it represents a form of compatibiism where there is a degree of determinism in some situations of human decision making, which is different from the standard definition provided.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostFirst theopedia is a Christian site, second, there are different different understandings of of what constitutes freedom of the will: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/i...lism-theories/
It is not a fog Shuny, it is a fact. If a human had a brain injury or brain disease for instance that may prevent the ability to choose otherwise.
Again . . .
There is an unresolved fog index in your qualification 'the power of contrary choice in most cases.' What cases would humans not have contrary choice?
Really, show me one definition Compatibilism that contains the power of contrary choice - I will be waiting...
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
Fog remains, you are describing a situation without will either way, which does not answer the question any more that breaking natural law and flapping your wings cannot fly.
I have already provided it. Again . . .
Define free will, since there are different ideas of what it is, what is your definition.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI gave you a clear example of what could possibly impinge on a choice.
Still waiting . . .
Define free will, since there are different ideas of what it is, what is your definition.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-18-2017, 08:38 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo you did not, Your example was one were the will does not exist as in brain injury and disease, and one where the law of gravity cannot be violated. Considering these, your view still fits the definition provided.
To be able to choose the contrary. In Libertarian free will there are no constraints on free will, in compatiblism there are constraints on where humans have free will choices.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is the point Shuny, unless there is something like an injury, an addiction, a gun to your head etc... we are able free to make choices. Do you disagree with that - or do you believe that all our choices are determined by antecedent conditions.
So you agree that we have the ability to choose otherwise? And I'm not sure what you mean by free will - what exactly are these constraints you are speaking of?Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-19-2017, 09:50 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo I do not believe ALL our choices are determined by antecedent conditions. Our choices are influenced and limited by antecedent conditions. See below
There are many constraints that limit free will such as you stated; '. . . our choices are determined by antecedent conditions.' In compatibilism NOT ALL our choices our are determined by antecedent conditions. In determinism ALL our choices are determined by antecedent conditions.' In libertarian free will NONE of our choices are determined by antecedent conditions, possibly with the exception, as you brought up defying the law of gravity, and when the brain is injured to the point that it impedes free will.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI think that you fence sitters, i.e. you compatibilists, have to explain what it is that you mean when you say that not all of our choices are determined by antecedent conditions.
I was simply explaining it to seer what the difference is, because like you he takes an extreme view, and is not open to understanding other possible view points.
Which choices are and which choices are not determined by antecedent conditions and what is the cause of the difference?
The 'potential' free will in our choices only exists within a frame work of the factors where determinism is determined by antecedent conditions. It is not the extreme black versus white situation of all free will versus no free will. Antecedent conditions that limit free will are human instinct, cultural controls and the priority of the desire for 'sense of belonging.' The reference emphasizes 'Moral Responsibility' that is an area of human choice of free will exist. Free will is still limited in Moral Responsibility,' because instinct and cultural factors limit the choices, nonetheless in compatabilism there is the 'potential' of free will within a range of possible choices. To add, instinct to survive remains the primary motive for 'Moral Responsibility.
I also believe that in the choices of human intellect and the advancement of the sciences there is the potential of free will in the natural human curiosity to know and explore things to advance our knowledge, and in general civilization. In this view our potential of free will choices are likely indeed limited, but not mechanistically predetermined.
I definitely consider strict determinism is too robotic and does not reflect the reality of the potential of a diversity in human choices over time.Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-19-2017, 01:27 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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