How Can Jesus Be "GOD" and Have a "God" At The Same Time?

[barley]

Hi Barley,

I always enjoy reading your posts. I would like to offer some thoughts for your consideration. Like you, I do not accept the trinity theory constructed by man, even though I was raised a Lutheran, and my Pastor tried very hard to get me to accept it. Now, I believe that Jesus IS the God of Abraham, and that Jesus is the God who created our world (as well as other worlds). However, Jesus is NOT the Father. Because there is confusion among believers about the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and for the purpose of clarification in my post to you, I will refer to Heavenly Father as the Most High God. Usually I refer to Father as Almighty God; but this can still be misconstrued by those who hold to the trinity theory.

This past week franktalk and I have particularly been studying Hebrews. (BTW, did you know that franktalk and I got married this past March? He also was baptized and joined the LDS Church. But I digress.....) In the first chapter we see Paul talking to the Jewish converts about what Father (the Most High God) has to say about His Son, Jesus Christ (the God who created our world). Here the Most High God does recognize His Son, Jesus, as God and also as Lord. In fact, we see quite a bit of what Jesus has accomplished in this chapter:

Hebrews 1 KJV (comments added)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: (I just love how Paul refers to the Most High God as "the Majesty on high" - isn't that just beautiful?!!)

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Inasmuch as you had referred to Moses in your comments to Reece, I would also like to do the same. Again, this is from Hebrews:

Hebrews 3:1-6 KJV

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

I believe that Jesus is quite literal when He teaches that His Father is our Father; His God is our God. But there are aspects about Jesus which are unique to Him alone. Inasmuch as the Most High God is called our Father by Jesus, I believe it is because the Most High God is the literal Father of our spirits; where Jesus is the Creator of our physical bodies. However, we are born of earthly parents to obtain our physical body; and what gives life to our physical body is our spirit which is placed inside of it. So our body is then the temple or tabernacle of our spirit. Jesus, OTOH, is the only man born in the flesh whose literal Father of His physical body is the Most High God - even though His mother, Mary, was an earthly parent. This is all part of the Plan of Salvation. This Plan was in place before the foundation of our world. The Most High God chose Jesus (who I also believe was the Most High God's first spirit child) to be the Savior and Redeemer of our world. Thus, Jesus has not only created our world, He is also our Redeemer whose Atonement provides the way of our salvation and ability to return to the presence of the Most High God.

I would also add that I believe we are all eternal beings. Before we became the spirit children of the Most High God, we co-existed as intelligences which the Most High God organized into spirits in which way He became our Heavenly Father. Jesus was the first intelligence to be organized. As the Creator of our world, Jesus IS the Great I AM; the Word; He IS the God of Abraham; the very Son of God through whom our salvation is accessible. But there is one who is greater than Jesus: the Most High God who is our Heavenly Father and our God. Jesus was constantly giving Glory to His Father and NOT to Himself.

Being in the flesh was a new experience for Jesus, even though He has created worlds without number. He did what He literally had seen His Father do. Father had taught Jesus how to create worlds. However, to be able to become our Savior, Jesus needed to have a body of flesh with which to experience all that mankind experiences in the flesh; thus He is our Perfect Mediator. Being in the flesh was also a test for Jesus, as well, to see if He would follow the will of His Father, the Most High God, perfectly; to see if He would live a sinless life in the flesh. Thus, He was the perfect sacrifice; the lamb without spot.

I think that you have much good insight in your study of the Bible. My thoughts have been shared in the hopes you will give them consideration and then, perhaps, get back to me and let me know your reaction to them. I have not provided all of the Biblical references which tie in with my beliefs. However, I feel that you have a great handle on scripture and will recall where many of my thoughts came from. Hopefully, therefore, this will make sense to you. Let me know if you do have any questions.

Peace be with you, Barley. If you do happen to respond to my post, I will most likely be unable to reply to it until next week as we are going to visit my daughter and her family for Easter.

Love,

jo

Jo

Congratulations to you and franktalk!

Thank you for the letting me know you enjoy reading my posts.

Now, I believe that Jesus IS the God of Abraham, and that Jesus is the God who created our world (as well as other worlds). However, Jesus is NOT the Father. Because there is confusion among believers about the relationship between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and for the purpose of clarification in my post to you, I will refer to Heavenly Father as the Most High God. Usually I refer to Father as Almighty God; but this can still be misconstrued by those who hold to the trinity theory.

Could you come up with some scripture references for your thoughts? It would be most helpful for us to consider the basis for those thoughts.

Jesus Christ is certainly not the Father. God is not the author of confusion. I Corinthians 14:33. He would not confuse us with calling himself the Father and likewise calling the son the father.

The trinity is most confusing. Three = one? One = three? God is not the author of confusion. Yet the trinity is nothing but confusion.

When you get back, we can chat some more.

barley

[goab]

I don't see how this is a problem any more than saying that the legislative branch is the federal government, and the judicial branch is the federal government and yet there is only one federal government.

(The term "numerical identity" below is philosophical jargon and has nothing to do with numbers)

The doctrine of the trinity is logically incoherent, ie impossible like a square circle. Your analogy does not work. Each branch is a constituitive integral part of the federal govt. The doctrine of the trinity does not say each divine person is a constituitive integral part of "God." In fact the doctrine of the trinity says "God" does not have parts.

And furthermore the doctrine of the trinity says each divine person is numerically identical (not just qualitatively identical but one and the same thing as) with "God." Well unless you want to deny both Leibniz's principle of the Indiscernability of Identicals (meaning that numerically identical things have exactly the same properties) and transitivity of the numerical identity relation, the doctrine of the trinity is logically or metaphysically impossible. Here's the proof:

1. "the Father" = "God"
2. "the Son" = "God"
3. "the Son" = "the Son"
4. "God" = "the Son" (either by 2 and transitivity of the numerical identity relation; or by 2, 3 and Leibniz's principle of the Indiscernability of Identicals)
5. "the Father" = "the Son" (either by 1, 4 and transitivity of the numerical identity relation; or by 1, 4 and Leibniz's principle of the Indiscernability of Identicals)
6. "the Father" =/= "the Son" (doctrine of the trinity that "he who is the Father is not he who is the Son")
q.e.d.
5 and 6 cannot both be true but 5 is as shown above entailed by the doctrine of the trinity and 6 is simply part of the doctrine
The only other way the doctrine of the trinity could be logically or metaphysically possible is if the same term, such as, "God", is being used equivocally.

I find it hard to believe that the ground of all being would want us to harbor in our minds doctrines that are not only false but logically impossible. I also find it hard to believe that the ground of all being would want us to harbor in our minds doctrines that are logically possible only if unbeknownst to us they are being used equivocally.

So I don't think I believe in the trinity.

[OmniSkeptical]

Reece, how do you explain psalms 82:6, or 1st corinthians 8:5?

[barley]

You lie apostoli! Genesis 1:27 does not depict "adam" as both male and female and a unique idea of God. This is what Genesis 1:27 (KJV) TRULY states: "So God created MAN in his own image, in the image of God created He him; MALE and FEMALE created He them." Do you see the word "adam" in the verse? I should say not, don't you?

I believe that Genesis 5:2 is a MISTRANSLATION where it says, "...and called their name Adam, in the day they were created..." There is NOTHING in the preceeding chapters and verses where the MAN and the WOMAN were named "adam." The MAN was created out of dust (Gen. 2:7) and was named Adam (Gen. 2:19, 20, 21, 23). In fact, the man whom God created out of dust, is the same Adam that is mentioned in Genesis 5:1, 3-5.



I see that you haven't heard the expression, "If you have seen me, you have seen my father." If I told you that apostoli, would your addled mind think that I am my own father? You wouldn't think so, would you?

IncCrus,


don't let the trinitarians lack of common sense disturb you.

II Corinthians 4:4

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They just don't get it.

For them, common sense is thrown out the window when it comes to scripture.

do you really want to argue with a fool? do you really want to lower yourself to their level?

barley

[reece1984]

Reece, how do you explain psalms 82:6, or 1st corinthians 8:5?

1 Cor 8:5 must be understood in context. The preceding verse (8:4) explicitly says "that there is none other God but one." If there is only "one" true, real, God, all other gods are false. Verse 5 therefore says, not that they really "are" other genuine gods, but rather, that there exists those "that are CALLED gods." That's the beginning of verse 5. But who is calling them gods? Certainly not the believers, for not only did Paul previously say there is only one God, but he goes on to contrasts the view of unbelievers (that there be gods many, and lords many) to the believers view, when he says, "but TO US there is but ONE God, the Father." (8:6) So in 1 Cor 8:5 the point is that people make gods out of many things, weather it be in heaven or earth. It doesn't have to be angels or humans, it could even be idols, for the context was talking about idols in verse 4 where he says "that an idol is nothing in the world," and picks up this point again in verse 7 about meats offered to idols. So Paul is contrasting the one God to the those people or things falsely called gods in verse 5.

Interestingly, if the Father being called the "one God" in verse 6 excluses Jesus from being God, then by the same logic, Jesus being called the "one Lord" in that same verse excludes the Father from being Lord. It stands to reason that if the Father is the one God in the ultimate sense and is thus Almighty God, then Jesus is the one Lord in the ultimate sense and is therefore Almighty Lord. Either way, to be consistent with logic the divinity of Christ emerges.

Ps 82:6 was simple sarcasm. These gods were wicked judges according to verse 2. They have no understanding and walk in darkness according to verse 5. Does that sound like a true god to you, or a false god? There very unjust judging shows them not to be sons of God, for a son of God does the righteous works of God. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:9-10) These judges did not show love to their brothers, but were judging unjustly in Israel. They thereore were not sons of God let alone gods, and so Yahweh sarcastically says "you are gods all of you are children of the Most High. But" what? "ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (82:7) Yahweh uses the fact that they will die to show they are not real gods after all. This isn't the first time he has done so. Just read Eze 28:1-10 and see the comparison, how God even says this guy is wiser than Daniel and so forth, but it's sarcasm, for God brings death upon him and proves to him he is no God.

The Scriptures proclaim that there is one, and only one God in all of existence. (Deu 4:35; Isa 43:10-11; 44:6, 8; 45:5-6, 14, 21-22; 46:9; Mal 2:10; Rom 3:30; 1 Cor 8:6; Eph 4:6; Jam 2:19) It also says that there is only one true God. (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20) So if the "gods" of Psalm 82 are not the true God, then there must be false. This means that all other gods are false. Since there is only one God, then no other being can truely be a god. This is why they are false gods. Now, Scripture plainly identifies the Son as God in John 20:28. The term "my God" refers to the true God every single time it is used in the Bible outside of John 20:28, establishig the consistent linguistic use of the term. Thomas here calls Jesus in the Greek, ho kurious mou kai ho theos mou, literally, the Lord of me and the God of me. So John 20:28 calls Jesus the God of Thomas, and in verse 29 Jesus approves. Now since there is only one true God, either Jesus was the true God in John 20:28, or a false god. Which is it? Jesus is also identified as God in Isaiah 9:6. So which is it: is he a true god, or a false god? If he is a true god, then he must be the Almighty, for there is only one true God, not two; if he is a false god, we are not saved, for no pretender could save us.

Isa 44:24 tells us that Yahweh made all things, streached out the heavens alone, spread out the earth by himself; yet Scripture reveals the Father as creator (Isa 64:8), and the Son (Col 1:16-17; Heb 1:2, 8-10), and the Holy Spirit (Ps 104:30; Job 26:13; 33:4) Combine this with the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:16 and the trinitarian has an airtight case. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not one God with the Father, then God the Father had help and did not create all things alone, by himself, as he said in Isaiah 44:24. If the trinity is true, harmony comes to the texts.

At Isaiah 43:11 Yahweh declares, "I myself am Yahweh and besides me there is no Saviour." (WEB) Scripture tells us palinly that Jesus is the Saviour. (Matt 1:21; Lu 2:11; Acts 4:12; 2 Tim 1:10; Tit 1:4; 2 Pet 1:11, etc) So is Jesus Yahweh himself, or is he another Saviour besides Yahweh? Which is it? If he is Yahweh, then he must be one Yahweh with the Father. For there is only one Yahweh. (Deu 6:4) If he is not Yahweh, then he is another saviour besides Yahweh, and Yahweh was lying when he claimed to be the only Saviour. Which is it? Acts 4:12 says of Jesus, that "there is no salvation in anyone else." Now, if Jesus is not God, then there can be no salvation in God, for there is no salvation in anyone else but Jesus.

I must at this point mention the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar. This rule states that when there are 2 nouns that are both singular which describe a person, and these nouns are connected by the word "and," the first noun having the article, the second noun not having the article then they refer to the SAME PERSON. (*Note that the nouns cannot be personal names*) There is absolutely no exception to this rule in all of the Greek New Testament. Having stated this rule I find it necessary to present two verses of scripture that unequivocally qualify Jesus as both God and Savior.

Titus 2:13 - while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, (NIV)

2Peter 1:1 - Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: (NIV)

Notice in both verses the noun "God" (theou) has the article (tou) and is connected to the second noun "Savior" (soteros) which does not have an article, by the word "and" (kai). Thus "God and Savior" both refer to the Person of Jesus. Grammatically this is irrefutable. So not only is Jesus Savior, He is God! So I think I have made a good case that Jesus is definitely God, and since there is only one God, then the Father and the Son must be one God. Now, onto the Holy Spirit.

That the Holy Spirt is God and Lord is clearly stated in the Scriptures. (Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor 3:17) The Holy Spirit has the same attributes of diety as the Father and the Son:
The Father is eternal (Ps 90:2), and the Son (Isa 9:6; Mic 5:2), and the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14)
The Father is omniscient (1 John 3:20), and the Son (John 16:30; 21:17), and the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:10-11)
The Father is omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Ps 137:8-18), and the Son (Matt 18:20), and the Holy Spirit. (Ps 137:7)
The Father is omnipotent (Dan 4:35), and the Son (Matt 28:18; John 17:10)

So I think we have good reason for believing in the trinity.

[apostoli]

You lie apostoli! Genesis 1:27 does not depict "adam" as both male and female and a unique idea of God. This is what Genesis 1:27 (KJV) TRULY states: "So God created MAN in his own image, in the image of God created He him; MALE and FEMALE created He them." Do you see the word "adam" in the verse? I should say not, don't you?

I believe that Genesis 5:2 is a MISTRANSLATION where it says, "...and called their name Adam, in the day they were created..." There is NOTHING in the preceeding chapters and verses where the MAN and the WOMAN were named "adam." The MAN was created out of dust (Gen. 2:7) and was named Adam (Gen. 2:19, 20, 21, 23). In fact, the man whom God created out of dust, is the same Adam that is mentioned in Genesis 5:1, 3

I see that you haven't heard the expression, "If you have seen me, you have seen my father." If I told you that apostoli, would your addled mind think that I am my own father? You wouldn't think so, would you?

IncCrus, don't let the trinitarians lack of common sense disturb you.

II Corinthians 4:4

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They just don't get it.

For them, common sense is thrown out the window when it comes to scripture.

do you really want to argue with a fool? do you really want to lower yourself to their level?

Seems Barley is indirectly calling IncRus an idiot and advising us not to argue with him, for in post No 180 I clearly refuted IncRus' distractions....starting with IncRus' ignoranace of the scriptural usage of the word "adam"...repeating my remarks...


The phrase "He him" does not occur in the original Hebrew, thats an English interpolation. The Hebrew simply says "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙" was created "זכר"=zā·ḵār"="male" and "נקבה"="nĕqebah"=female.

Genesis 1:27
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָֽאָדָם בְּצַלְמֹו בְּצֶלֶם
אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתֹו זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בָּרָא אֹתָֽם׃

In the Hebrew of Genesis 1:27 "adam" does not refer to a particular individual but to both the male and the female. The order of the Hebrew has it that God created the male="זכר" then in inclusive language declaring "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙" as a type he creates the female="נקבה" determining both of them as "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙".

In Genesis 5:2, we encounter an even more emphatic statement (no mistranslation, it is crystal clear in the original Hebrew), both the male and the female are named by God directly by the term "אָדָ֔ם"="adam". Ask any Jew....

Genesis 5:2
זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בְּרָאָם וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם וַיִּקְרָא
אֶת־שְׁמָם אָדָם בְּיֹום הִבָּֽרְאָֽם׃ ס

______________________

It is obvious to me that it isn't Trinitarians that are lacking in common sense but those that fight against the teaching whereby "common sense is thrown out the window when it comes to scripture". If Jesus is truely the Son of God then by definition he is what his Father is! (John 1:1; Heb 1:3; Phil 2:6)

[barley]

Seems Barley is indirectly calling IncRus an idiot and advising us not to argue with him, for in post No 180 I clearly refuted IncRus' distractions....starting with IncRus' ignoranace of the scriptural usage of the word "adam"...repeating my remarks...


The phrase "He him" does not occur in the original Hebrew, thats an English interpolation. The Hebrew simply says "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙" was created "זכר"=zā·ḵār"="male" and "נקבה"="nĕqebah"=female.

Genesis 1:27
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת־הָֽאָדָם בְּצַלְמֹו בְּצֶלֶם
אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתֹו זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בָּרָא אֹתָֽם׃

In the Hebrew of Genesis 1:27 "adam" does not refer to a particular individual but to both the male and the female. The order of the Hebrew has it that God created the male="זכר" then in inclusive language declaring "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙" as a type he creates the female="נקבה" determining both of them as "adam"="הָֽאָדָם֙".

In Genesis 5:2, we encounter an even more emphatic statement (no mistranslation, it is crystal clear in the original Hebrew), both the male and the female are named by God directly by the term "אָדָ֔ם"="adam". Ask any Jew....

Genesis 5:2
זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה בְּרָאָם וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם וַיִּקְרָא
אֶת־שְׁמָם אָדָם בְּיֹום הִבָּֽרְאָֽם׃ ס

______________________

It is obvious to me that it isn't Trinitarians that are lacking in common sense but those that fight against the teaching whereby "common sense is thrown out the window when it comes to scripture". If Jesus is truely the Son of God then by definition he is what his Father is! (John 1:1; Heb 1:3; Phil 2:6)

Apostoli,

You read into my words as deceitfully as you read into the scriptures.

There is no trinity taught in the scriptures as being the one true God. Only the Father is the true God. John 17:3

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Now, scripture does not specifically list all possible idols, but Romans 1:23 makes it clear that making an incorruptible man into God is idolatry.

"And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

That is exactly what trinitarians have done by making Jesus Christ, the son of God into "God the son"

Idolatry.

Try reading scripture once.

barley

[reece1984]

Apostoli,

You read into my words as deceitfully as you read into the scriptures.

There is no trinity taught in the scriptures as being the one true God. Only the Father is the true God. John 17:3

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

Now, scripture does not specifically list all possible idols, but Romans 1:23 makes it clear that making an incorruptible man into God is idolatry.

"And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

That is exactly what trinitarians have done by making Jesus Christ, the son of God into "God the son"

Idolatry.

Try reading scripture once.

barley

What an amazing speech. I truely wondered at this part where you said:

"Now, scripture does not specifically list all possible idols, but Romans 1:23 makes it clear that making an incorruptible man into God is idolatry."

So do you then think that Thomas was committing idolatry when he called Jesus "my Lord and my God" at John 20:28-29? If so, why did Jesus bless him? And if Thomas wasn't committing idolatry by calling Jesus his God (the Greek says [kai ho Theos mou - the God of me]) then how do you explain John 20:28 in light of Romans 1:23?

[apostoli]

There is no trinity taught in the scriptures as being the one true God. Only the Father is the true God. John 17:3

Do you deny Jesus is uniquely the Son of God? Sons are usuall what their father is! Just as John 1:1c states "what God was the Logos was" (NEB)

As for the Trinity, I guess you ignore John 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [the Paraklete] will take of Mine and declare it to you".

Now, scripture does not specifically list all possible idols, but Romans 1:23 makes it clear that making an incorruptible man into God is idolatry.

Seems you also ignore Phillipians 2:9 "God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name'. It isn't men that have exalted Jesus, but his own Father.

Try reading scripture once

I recommend you try reading the scriptures without editing out the bits that conflict with our opinion.

[abu njoroge]

If God "bes" something, it exists, thus becomes part of creation - rather than God, which is not part of creation.

I know you did not mean it but this looks like you are saying God does not exist? I know what you mean when you say god is not part of creation. I would argue that she is because Gods spirit is omnipresent thus everywhere.

[abu njoroge]

He also says those that do the will of the father shall be called sons of God. He was one with the spirit of God. To say that jesus is the creator is absurd . God had to die on the cross to please himself in heaven because of our wrong doing that he permitted in the first place? Jesus cried out to God on the cross.

[odis]

How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?

if nothing else, i am a human with other humans as my superiors. i am human and my father is -strangely- also human. how is jesus's relationship to god different?

[barley]

Since you have superiors,human superiors, you not equal with them as far as stature or role in life.

Likewise with God's superiority over Jesus Christ.

God is greater than the son, they are not equal.

Moses is God, according to God, Exodus 7:1

"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

Those by whom the word of God came are gods, according to Jesus Christ.John 10:34-35

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Jesus Christ is one of those prophets unto whom the word of God came.

Jesus Christ is not "the God" but as a prophet, "a god", he is subordinate to the Father, a servant, who always did the Father's will.

Jesus Christ is a god like unto Moses raised up by God out of the brethren.

barley

[barley]

Do you deny Jesus is uniquely the Son of God?

Why do you bring that up?

Does that have anything to do with the false teaching of the trinity?

Does that somehow support the false doctrine of the"deity" of Jesus Christ?

NO, it does not.

But, since you ask.

NO man was divinely conceived by God except for Jesus Christ.

That event was the beginning point, the genesis of Jesus Christ, Matthew 1:18

He did not exist in any physical or spiritual way before that moment.

Except as part of God's plan for man's redemption, that is in the mind of God.

Sons are usuall what their father is!

True, usually.

However, since God is spirit. John 4:24

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

According to Jesus Christ.

and Jesus Christ is not. Luke 24:39

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

According to Jesus Christ.

That alone is sufficient, at least according to Jesus Christ, to conclude that Jesus Christ is not "the God" but rather a son of God.

All Christians are sons of God. That is, if you are led by the spirit of God. Romans 8:14

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Since I am led by the spirit of God, I am a son of God.

Originally, and even now, as far a body and soul go, I am the earthly son of my father and mother. Therefore, that part of me had to be adopted by God. For it was my earthly father's seed that impregnated the egg in my mother that got this thing started.

However, God was able to plan to have real children of his, I John 3:1-2

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

That took a lot of love on God's part to make me a son of His.

And I know that I will be like Jesus Christ when he appears. So will I be like God? or will I be like Jesus Christ, the son of God?

I am a son of God by seed, not by adoption only, I Peter 1:23

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

Though not uniquely conceived as Jesus Christ was, I am a son of God nonetheless.

Even as all Christians are.

Just as John 1:1c states "what God was the Logos was" (NEB)

Was? or still is?

If Jesus is God then in the second phrase of John 1:1, "the word was with God" who or what is the word, "word" referring to?

It cannot be God, for "together, not separately, the three make up God" according to one definition of the trinity.

God according to the trinity is composed of "the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost"

So, the word "God" in "the word was with God" includes Jesus Christ.

So I repeat my question, "Who or what was with God in the second phrase of John 1:1, "the word was with God"?

Since that phrase precedes the one you mention, it seem logical to me to address that first.

Since of course, John 1:1 is proof positive that a trinity exists, and you know and understand it, that should be no problem for you to answer.

Once you have answered that correctly, then your question is answered.

As for the Trinity, I guess you ignore John 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [the Paraklete] will take of Mine and declare it to you".

Could you explain why you think that that verse teaches a trinity? or that it somehow teaches that Jesus Christ is God?

The Father gave the son those things. Jesus Christ did not have those things until the Father gave it to him.

You say the Father and the son are equal,

Were they equal before God gave all those things to Jesus Christ or were they equal after God gave all those things to Jesus Christ?

If Jesus was God, why would God have to give him those things, seeing that God already had them?

Seems you also ignore Phillipians 2:9 "God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name'. It isn't men that have exalted Jesus, but his own Father.

No, I do not ignore it, I actually read it and believe it and understand it.

It says God exalted God, doesn't it?

Wait, that is not what it says.

It says God needed to more God so God exalted himself for being obedient to himself.

No , wait, it does not say that either.

God exalted his son, because the son obeyed the Father. Jesus christ's obedience earned him the exaltation of being seated on the right hand of the throne of God.

do you know why Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the throne of God instead of in the throne of God?

It is because God occupies the throne of God.

So there is no room for Jesus Christ to sit there. He was exalted to sit on the right hand of God.

I recommend you try reading the scriptures without editing out the bits that conflict with our opinion.

Your quote perfectly defines your doctrine.

our opinion

The trinity and the "deity" of Jesus Christ is not scripture, it is YOUR OPINION.

So read and reread my post with your Bible and then you will have scripture instead of opinion.

barley

[apostoli]

Do you deny Jesus is uniquely the Son of God?

Why do you bring that up?

Does that have anything to do with the false teaching of the trinity?

It is the first premise of the doctrine of the Trinity. As the Nicene Creed states, "begotten not made, God from God..."

Does that somehow support the false doctrine of the"deity" of Jesus Christ?

To an extent. See John 12:45; 14:7,21,

NO man was divinely conceived by God except for Jesus Christ.

So, is it your contention that like the pagan gods, your God came to earth penetrated Mary and inserted his sperm into Mary to produce a biological child, producing a hybrid god-man?

That event was the beginning point, the genesis of Jesus Christ, Matthew 1:18

I have no disagreement in that respect regarding the temporal identity of the man.

He did not exist in any physical or spiritual way before that moment.

Jesus, in his own words seems to disagree with you, as does A.Paul, A.John and the author of Hebrews.

Except as part of God's plan for man's redemption, that is in the mind of God.

Where in scripture does it say so?