Demons

[jo7241974]

PsychGuy;3105265]

So people get demon-possessed for five minutes at a time and then the demon moves on? Again, I think that's a wholly unnecessary and unbiblical definition of possession, that if anything makes light of how serious a condition demon-possession is, by claiming it comes and goes in such a wishy-washy manner. Particularly in regard to Peter, he seems to have had special protection against demonic attack:

"And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.” " Luke 22:31-32

I think there are more than one type of demon; just like there are different types of "good" angels, the same is most likely true of demons. Most likely there is an heirarchy among evil spirits and Satan is their leader. I believe that Satan's subtleties can also be disguised through our concepts and precepts about possession. I am offering that there is not much difference between obsession and possession.

I think that's a deep question that the Biblical information doesn't fully cover, so I would have to say I don't know. The Catholic idea you quoted above seems interesting though...the idea that the demon would have control of the body, but not the "soul" or mind perhaps. From an outsider perspective, you of course wouldn't be able to tell the difference either way, since we cannot see the soul or mind. Does an epileptic have free will when he has a seizure? Does a drug user have free will when he's high and seems to do things he doesn't intend to or wouldn't normally do?

I didn't know what the Catholic position was until yesterday when I was preparing to post to this thread. I agree that from the outsider perspective we wouldn't be able to tell the difference either way. I extend this thought to include Paul's thorn. You are now bringing up some excellent questions for contemplation as well.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction as you're explaining it. What is the difference, in your view, between being possessed by a demon, and being influenced or tempted by one?

My perception seems to be developing that there is not much difference if any. However, the degree to which a person can be possessed would be dependent upon different factors; i.e., the demon itself, the resulting sin, the amount of time consumed in fighting the desire to perform a specific sin, the effect on a person's amount of "free will" vs "non-free will", etc... Therefore, some "possessions" could be considered much less drastic and/or controlling than others.

I think ultimately we choose to sin. That doesn't mean there are no external forces acting upon us compelling us to act as we do. It also seems to get easier to act sinfully or righteously the more we give in to one temptation or another, and harder to move in the opposite direction.

I agree. Yet this paragraph does not encompass every variable or scenario. I am so thankful that God does know what is in our hearts and which influences and experiences effect the choices we make!!!

I agree. What you're confusing though, is "evil" and "demonic activity." Demonic activity is just one subset of evil. We as individuals can be plenty twisted and evil without any demons egging us on. In Scripture this internal concupiscence, or sin nature, or whatever your particular tradition calls it, is called the flesh. Paul in Romans describes a war going on within himself between good and evil. However, he doesn't speak a word about demons. Rather, he speaks of his flesh as that which compels him to act evilly:

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. " Romans 7:23

So yes, good and evil can co-exist within a person. That doesn't mean a Christian can be demon-possessed, though.

I agree that we ourselves have the war of good and evil going on inside of us. It is because we have the knowledge of the difference between good and evil (as described in the Garden of Eden....) that we do strugggle. If we had no knowledge about the difference, then we wouldn't be struggling with it. I am offering that there may very well be much more demonic activity taking place inside of us than just the struggle we are having with our own personal self.

I still see no evidence in the verses you are referring to that exclude the possibility that a Christian cannot be demon-possessed. In fact, since we DO have the struggle of good and evil going on inside of us, who is to say that our spirit may not become demonic when we are practicing sin/evil. I guess it comes down even to degrees and our basic definitions for the sources of the choices we make. Even the sin which you and I might agree is entirely 100% of our personal choice causes us to be serving Satan and his purposes at the moment of our sin. That means we are NOT serving God at that very moment. So, the results are the same regardless of whatever it is that caused us to sin.

Again, I think this interpretation stems from an odd belief you seem to have that every time we sin a demon must be whispering into our ear telling us to do it. (Or worse yet, that if we sin, it must mean we're demon-possessed.)

I have never said that every time we sin a demon must be whispering into our ear telling us to do it. Somehow, you have projected this thought upon my comments. I do think that we are not very knowledgable about this subject. Specifically, and regardless of the source of motivation for our sinful choices, at the moment we sin we are not eating at the Lord's table even though the Holy Spirit may or may not still be indwelling us. Whether personally driven or through the influence of obsession or possession, sin does not serve God at that moment, and both good and evil are within us at the same time. What we are learning, while in our physical body, is to take control over evil so that our choices eventually are in harmony with God's will. Perhaps if we DID understand more about obsession and possession, our struggles could be more easily overcome.

Who are we before and/or while we are learning to be one with God? Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are obviously not yet one with God if we are sinning. If, as the Catholic church teaches, our soul cannot be possessed even though our body and actions may be possessed, it seems that WE, in the form of our own self/soul/spirit, are the factor standing between ourself and being one with God. In this respect, perhaps "possession" is more real and much more prevalent in effecting the choices we make than we may have previously considered or understood, especially if the degree of that possession is subtle and not as easily recognized.

God bless,

jo

[jo7241974]

But Jo, if you think that you are controlled by unclean and or clean spirits then who exactly are you?

An excellent question! However, I have never stated that our "choices" are being controlled. I am merely offering food for thought. I think there is a huge range of understanding which is not yet grasped about this subject. With any choice we make we are either doing God's will OR we are preventing God's will to be done. I believe the principalities of evil and darkness are real; I have not yet learned to discern where the choices I make are entirely due only to my personal spirit's influence vs what obsessive or possessive darkness has influenced my choices. I am here in my physical body learning how to control my actions so that my choices are in harmony with God's will regardless of where the influences are coming from.

God bless,

jo

[PsychGuy]

My perception seems to be developing that there is not much difference if any.

Then we have simply come to a basic, fundamental disagreement over the definition of terms. Your definition of demon-possession is obscenely broad.

I still see no evidence in the verses you are referring to that exclude the possibility that a Christian cannot be demon-possessed. In fact, since we DO have the struggle of good and evil going on inside of us, who is to say that our spirit may not become demonic when we are practicing sin/evil.

Well, the Bible is to say, for one. The flesh is not a demon.

I have never said that every time we sin a demon must be whispering into our ear telling us to do it. Somehow, you have projected this thought upon my comments.

Really? Just in this last post you have said:

"In fact, since we DO have the struggle of good and evil going on inside of us, who is to say that our spirit may not become demonic when we are practicing sin/evil."

This seems to at least imply what I indicated above. Just because we are doing evil does not mean we are being demonically attacked or possessed.

I do think that we are not very knowledgable about this subject. Specifically, and regardless of the source of motivation for our sinful choices, at the moment we sin we are not eating at the Lord's table even though the Holy Spirit may or may not still be indwelling us. Whether personally driven or through the influence of obsession or possession, sin does not serve God at that moment, and both good and evil are within us at the same time. What we are learning, while in our physical body, is to take control over evil so that our choices eventually are in harmony with God's will. Perhaps if we DID understand more about obsession and possession, our struggles could be more easily overcome.

As I understand it, the Christian has been traditionally understood to have three basic enemies: The Flesh, Satan/Demons, and the World (I believe this concept exists in Catholicism as well, you may want to check it out). The Bible gives us indications of the distinct ways in which each of these three attack us, and the distinct ways to counteract or defend against each one. They can be and are often interrelated, but they are not all one and the same.

Who are we before and/or while we are learning to be one with God? Even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we are obviously not yet one with God if we are sinning. If, as the Catholic church teaches, our soul cannot be possessed even though our body and actions may be possessed, it seems that WE, in the form of our own self/soul/spirit, are the factor standing between ourself and being one with God. In this respect, perhaps "possession" is more real and much more prevalent in effecting the choices we make than we may have previously considered or understood, especially if the degree of that possession is subtle and not as easily recognized.

Where do you find the concept of "degrees" of possession in the Bible? Again, I think we're going to run into denotative conflict here because you're essentially saying that all demonic attack, temptation, oppression, etc. is all "demon-possession," just in different degrees. I just don't find that indication any where in the Bible. Demon possession is a specific term used to describe a person indwelled by a demon and controlled by that demon. Christians aren't being temporarily indwelled by a demon every time a demon tempts them or attacks them. That just isn't anywhere in Scripture.

[jo7241974]

PsychGuy;3105428]Then we have simply come to a basic, fundamental disagreement over the definition of terms. Your definition of demon-possession is obscenely broad.

Well, the Bible is to say, for one. The flesh is not a demon.

Our spirit is NOT flesh; only our physical body is flesh. Your interpretation from the Bible that our spirit is flesh could be seen as broadly obscene.

Really? Just in this last post you have said:

"In fact, since we DO have the struggle of good and evil going on inside of us, who is to say that our spirit may not become demonic when we are practicing sin/evil."

This seems to at least imply what I indicated above. Just because we are doing evil does not mean we are being demonically attacked or possessed.

Your reasoning escapes me. It seems to me that if it is "us" practicing the sin, surely we are in possession of "our self". Also, what DO you think about sinning even though we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit? This seems to be an important factor to consider when you make the claim that a Christian simply cannot be possessed by a demon? There is still obviously both good and evil in the Christian who sins.

Where do you find the concept of "degrees" of possession in the Bible?

I've been very clear in presenting my progressing thoughts as merely that; IOW, contemplation.

Again, I think we're going to run into denotative conflict here because you're essentially saying that all demonic attack, temptation, oppression, etc. is all "demon-possession," just in different degrees. I just don't find that indication any where in the Bible. Demon possession is a specific term used to describe a person indwelled by a demon and controlled by that demon. Christians aren't being temporarily indwelled by a demon every time a demon tempts them or attacks them. That just isn't anywhere in Scripture.

I believe that there are layers of meaning in the Bible. I also believe there are types and patterns revealed. As our understanding grows, and the Holy Spirit leads us to all Truth, the layers of understanding are revealed. If a persons "knowledge" remains fixed and static, they have stopped learning and are no longer adding to the Truth previously revealed to them.

I understand WHAT you are saying about demon possession. However, it appears your concept about it is very wooden which seems to be the only real difference in what we are saying. Until becoming involved in this thread, I felt much the same as you do now. I had just not given it much consideration until yesterday. I guess I approach studying scripture differently than you do.

God bless,

jo

Edited to add, I just saw your signature line: "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." I think that is what I have done concerning this subject.

jo

[franktalk]

Those who think that the body of knowledge about demons is only contained in the Bible are wrong. For the past two thousand years people have struggled with this problem. Obviously most of the information is trash and is motivated by the flesh rather than Christian thinking. But there are some people who have been exposed to evil in many forms and have experience enough to write a very detailed Handbook on the subject. I have read a few books and have had a couple of first hand experiences myself. I am no expert but if one really wants to find out more they can. But I warn anyone who chooses this path that Satan will know you have decided to do so before you make your first step. You might as well paint a bulls eye on your forehead. So if you go down this path the first thing you need to know is how to protect yourself.

Demons know who you are. They know your weaknesses and if you truly are protected. I know a man who received phone calls from people he did not know telling him not to study possession. This was months before he decided to do so. This man has a pure heart and a pure spirit. It is very rare. I know I don't qualify but I do have hope that one day I will.

[YourMaster]

So, some mental illness is caused by demons, but sometimes it is a naturally occurring condition? How do you distinguish between the two?

If you slap the guy a few times, and he's still shaking, it's probably a seizure

[Tassman]

Weak.

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer

I was using the term in the psychological sense of 'wish-fulfillment', i.e. the gratification or satisfaction of a desire or inner-need through a day-dream or similar exercise of the imagination.

Best, Jamie

[Tassman]

That's why they call if faith.

By which you mean “believing without verified evidence” – which is what I said.

From a naturalist viewpoint a man is born and then dies. The worth of that man is in any additional information he contributes to society while alive. You value the information and make the man an accident of nature and worth nothing in the large view. While I consider society worthless and the individual has value.

Yes, we all are born and then die. The only difference between you and me is that you seem to think you will live on after you die.

All individuals have value, but as social creatures our individuality is subordinated to the requirements of society at large. As individuals we cannot survive in the wild. As part of a community we not only survive but flourish and build communities. But this has nothing to do with naturalism being a religion which was your initial point.

The religion of the Bible gives love as the driving force for our existence. Whereas naturalism declares that there is no reason.

A “driving force” is not the same as a “reason for existence”. Naturalism also provides a driving force, namely our genetic predisposition to cooperate and strive for harmony in community. It’s a survival defense mechanism and arose via natural selection – as with ALL social creatures.

By “reason” you really mean “purpose”. We all have a purpose in life and ALL religions claim to provide a purpose in life.

And very limiting.

No more limiting than yours. The only difference is that you believe, without any verified evidence, that your life continues on after death. In short, you believe that your “real life” only begins when you are dead. But you will never know if this is true until you die and in the meantime you risk devaluing the only life we are sure we do have.

So you wish to be on the wrong side of Pascal's wager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

How do you know that you are not on the wrong side of Pascal’s Wager? Given the thousands of gods’ throughout history, the odds that you are backing the right god are not good.

[Vivian]

Hi Jo!

I thought perhaps I might return to your post, and add some specific comments that might be useful to you. If I might first make a comment regarding clean and unclean spirits. I believe we have before discussed the empty space within the molecules and the atoms of matter. Most of what we perceive as form actually under a microscope appears to be 'empty space'. Intriguing, yes?

Now do you believe it is really 'empty space' or perhaps you might believe that this empty space is actually filled, only we cannot perceive what is filling it with our mundane sensing?

I offer that what we think is empty space is filled with all sorts of spirits - clean and unclean. It is said that at this level of creation, we have 1/3 light to 2/3 darkness or shadow, so that 2/3s of the apparent empty space is actually filled with unclean spirits.

Your suggested possible consequence, though certainly abbreviated, does cause a person to pause for a moment. I would offer some other thoughts to throw into the mix. I bring them up only as observations, and not as anything I do or do not believe as a result of my watching.

* Great "thinkers" - i.e., those who spend much time in contemplation about their world, can be credited with many observations, and processes then deemed "true" or "truth" by mankind which would have gone unnoticed if time had not been spent "thinking".

Yes, they are accessing 'higher mental realms' with their deep concentration and focus. In fact, to see within the empty space - which includes higher mental and vital realms - requires devotion, focus, stilled minds. Something that the more intellectual among us are naturally able to sustain.

* It has been noted that men labeled "shaman" who are regarded as spiritual leaders among some peoples, take hallucinogenic drugs at which point they describe surprisingly similar experiences.

If I might offer, not all shaman take hallucinogenic drugs, nor do they use them in their teaching and healing. Many do, but not all. And yes, these drugs do enable the consciousness to become aware of more subtle realms, beings, energies, thought. Hallucinogenic drugs artificially open our spiritual sensing, but whatever they enable the taker to do is only temporary and it is not true spiritual vision. Those who are spiritually awake can enter into the same realms and even higher realms without the use of these drugs. I would say that taking these drugs allows a person to access the lower heavens - similar to what can be accessed by most of humanity in dreamtime.

Now, is this because the drug has the ability to give the same thoughts to the various people who take it?

Actually what these drugs do is affect the pituitary gland, opening up the crown where the soul or conscious awareness comes and goes from the body. What these drugs do is pretty well documented. They are not safe to take though, and they give beings experiences that they are not ready yet to integrate.

Or, does the drug open a doorway into the human mind where similar thoughts can occur which would not otherwise occur?

The drugs open up the doorway allowing the consciousness to become aware of the 'empty space'.

...or, is it possible when the mind is opened by these drugs, that man is REALLY remembering similar experiences from another time and place of existence?

Now this is where great mystery comes in, for this empty space that our mind becomes aware of is also inside of us, so it is a part of us. These higher thoughts or mental realms exist within us and without us - higher parts of our being (parts of us that exist in the empty space) thus already know them - even if the part of us in material from does not. The process by which the material self becomes aware of what higher parts of ourselves already knows is called remembering. This is what the Bible means when it says remember your creator. Now our lower consciousness associated with our physical body has no superficial or direct experience or memory of the creator, so when we are told to remember, the Bible is speaking of our lower consciousness becoming aware of our higher self which exists in the empty space along with other parts of creation, and thus aware of what it knows.

This is knowing God and being known by him.

Mysterious, eh?

Or, is their mind opened to co-existing reality which IS "super"-natural or spiritual vs physical? Can the human mind come up with truly ORIGINAL ideas? OR do these ideas and thoughts exist in another realm, and by the use of training thoughts or taking drugs or whatever (even prayer??), allow our minds to traverse an invisible gulf?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

* Regarding a mentally ill person - and certainly there are many types and many degrees to these illnesses. How do the victims try to describe what is happening? Quite often, I see it is about "another place" where their mind goes and can be trapped. Due to whatever the cause of their illness.....which we may label as demon, or genetic, or the result of abuse, etc., the "place" shares familiarities. Who is to say that the "place" they go does NOT exist? All we can really say is that we cannot "see" where they are. We can only see the result of their being there. Perhaps in some misunderstood way of trying to understand this, the "sane" man is the one who is trapped in a physical realm.

Yes, indeed. Mentally ill people are often seeing into the empty spaces, are having glimpses into the empty spaces, but unable to integrate them. As shared 2/3 of the empty space closest to the material is dark, hostile, malevolent, and so if a personality is not purified or prepared when it develops an ability to peer or see through a crack in their mind, it is going to make contact with some energies that might not be so nice. They might possess them, influence them, or just the awareness of them will drive them insane. Hence it is not good to take drugs or to otherwise try to look into the other realms until one is sufficiently purified so that they will only attract or see energies or beings of light.

What I am talking about is what the Bible is all about, these spiritual realms where the nations exist, where the dominions and principalities of evil reside. In fact, going back to Genesis 1, scripture is speaking of these spiritual realms and worlds. As Apostle Paul shares, these malevolent spiritual beings are the true enemy. They are the ones hurting us. Keeping us in bondage.

Consider further, if a man is engulfed entirely by a "physical" existence and through his own thought processes is therefore not ready to "see" anything spiritual or super-natural, what a truly mind-blowing experience it can be if another realm of existence is revealed to him.

Indeed. Most human souls are not ready yet for this, which is only the first step to salvation. If we are going to be free, we have to be free in all spiritual realms, able to perceive and transverse them without being bothered or influenced by malevolent energies and powers.

This is overcoming - no longer being affected negatively by these spiritual beings.

With these comments in mind, perhaps Paul and Mohammed verbalized their experiences with a very real existence which is invisible to the labeled "sane" naked human eye of physicality.


God bless,

jo

Actually, just as we see in scripture, as we follow Christ our ability to perceive and walk in these realms will be awakened. And there are many disciples of Christ in this world who are well aware of these realms. They just don't hang out in mainstream churches. They hang out in the more private Christian gatherings which are separate from worldly authority.

Someone asked what the name of my tradition is. Like many of the original followers of Christ, it was for centuries just called the Way. We sometimes refer to it in English as the Wisdom Fellowship, or the Church of Faith and Wisdom. It is am international network of home churches, like those attended by the first followers of Christ.

It usually requires guidance from the Holy Spirit to find and make contact with such a church. One has to have gone through much healing, or as Paul calls it, much dying to self, before being able to or even wanting to connect with such churches. Very few are called, or able, or even want to connect with Christ on this level.

Shalom!

Viv

[Composer]

Demons is simply the metaphor applied to diseases and ailments that could not yet be diagnosed by man.

[Sparko]

Its amazing how the inspired word of God is so confusing and misunderstood even by those who believe it, is it not?

There are nuts and fanatics in every religion, and non-religion, Jim. People who misuse words to make them say what they want them to. From the bible to the koran to the US constitution.

[Composer]

There are nuts and fanatics in every religion, and non-religion, Jim. People who misuse words to make them say what they want them to. From the bible to the koran to the US constitution.

Speaking of which your alleged ' non-confusing story book god ' (1 Corinithians 14:33 KJV story book) certainly allows confusion to reign supreme, hence the myriad of denominations of believers and non-believers.

Take also the tpical trinitarian BS response ' It's often a (confusing) mystery ' LOL!

A true ' non-confusing god ' would be just that ' non-confusing ' however we know the story book one only creates confusion even amongst those claiming to be of the same specific story book ideology.

[PsychGuy]

Our spirit is NOT flesh; only our physical body is flesh. Your interpretation from the Bible that our spirit is flesh could be seen as broadly obscene.

When did I say our spirit is flesh?

Your reasoning escapes me. It seems to me that if it is "us" practicing the sin, surely we are in possession of "our self".

Do you not see that the implication of your thoughts is that every evil deed we do is, or at least "could be," demonically influenced? That's almost verbatim what you said.

"In fact, since we DO have the struggle of good and evil going on inside of us, who is to say that our spirit may not become demonic when we are practicing sin/evil."

Ergo, you have confused any and all evil within us as demonic, and ergo my demon-whispering-in-your-ear comment.

Also, what DO you think about sinning even though we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit? This seems to be an important factor to consider when you make the claim that a Christian simply cannot be possessed by a demon? There is still obviously both good and evil in the Christian who sins.

Yes, and I agreed that good and evil exists in the Christian. What seems to have escaped you is that I DISTINGUISHED between types of evil. There is a difference between our flesh, and demonic attack/influence. We can be evil without any help from demonic forces, via our flesh. So yes, a Christian can sin although he is indwelled by the Holy Spirit, by giving in to the desires of his flesh.

I've been very clear in presenting my progressing thoughts as merely that; IOW, contemplation.

By all means, contemplate away; just don't call your contemplations Biblical unless you have Biblical evidence to support them.

I understand WHAT you are saying about demon possession. However, it appears your concept about it is very wooden which seems to be the only real difference in what we are saying. Until becoming involved in this thread, I felt much the same as you do now. I had just not given it much consideration until yesterday. I guess I approach studying scripture differently than you do.

It's not that I'm trying to be "wooden," it's that you've taken a concept from the Bible used in very particular contexts and stretched it so thin as to be almost meaningless.

Honestly, I think you're giving Satan and demons far more credit than they're worth. Christians have a tendency to either ignore Satan and demons entirely, and pretend they don't exist (or only acknowledge them intellectually), or to over-emphasize them way too much and see a demon around every corner, blame every bad thing we do on Satan/demons and see Satan/demons behind every bad thing in the world. You seem to be veering rapidly in the latter direction. That's all I'm saying.

[jo7241974]

Vivian;3105552]Hi Jo!

I thought perhaps I might return to your post, and add some specific comments that might be useful to you. If I might first make a comment regarding clean and unclean spirits. I believe we have before discussed the empty space within the molecules and the atoms of matter. Most of what we perceive as form actually under a microscope appears to be 'empty space'. Intriguing, yes?

Hi Viv!

I am always happy to see your comments! Yes, you have talked about empty space. Indeed, this fits quite well with this discussion.

Now do you believe it is really 'empty space' or perhaps you might believe that this empty space is actually filled, only we cannot perceive what is filling it with our mundane sensing?

I offer that what we think is empty space is filled with all sorts of spirits - clean and unclean. It is said that at this level of creation, we have 1/3 light to 2/3 darkness or shadow, so that 2/3s of the apparent empty space is actually filled with unclean spirits.

Interesting concept about 1/3 light to 2/3 darkness or shadow. I am trying to get my head around the math in reconciling this with the 1/3 of the host of heaven who are with satan/darkness. I think there must be two equations to consider. There would be the equation for the light remaining in heaven vs the equation for the light that is in the bubble of our physical world (which we have discussed before). Help! At any rate, I believe that the number of unclean spirits far out-number the earth's population at any given time.

Yes, they are accessing 'higher mental realms' with their deep concentration and focus. In fact, to see within the empty space - which includes higher mental and vital realms - requires devotion, focus, stilled minds. Something that the more intellectual among us are naturally able to sustain.

I think that the better we are able to sustain, the more perfected we become. This is very difficult to do while in the flesh. It was not meant to be easy. Things easily achieved are not usually appreciated, nor would we be able to truly learn if it was easy....we learn more from our mistakes than we do from our successes. The need for having the knowledge between good and evil in the first place becomes so obvious.

If I might offer, not all shaman take hallucinogenic drugs, nor do they use them in their teaching and healing. Many do, but not all. And yes, these drugs do enable the consciousness to become aware of more subtle realms, beings, energies, thought. Hallucinogenic drugs artificially open our spiritual sensing, but whatever they enable the taker to do is only temporary and it is not true spiritual vision. Those who are spiritually awake can enter into the same realms and even higher realms without the use of these drugs. I would say that taking these drugs allows a person to access the lower heavens - similar to what can be accessed by most of humanity in dreamtime.

I agree; I did not intend to imply that all shaman take hallucinogenics. I also agree that the spiritually awake do not need drugs to access other realms. I think that those who are able to access these realms do not automatically comprehend everything going on in those realms. There is also a progression that takes place in the heavens. Dreamtime seems a good way to try to describe some awareness of the non-physical. I think sometimes we actually do access other realms in our dreams - though I am unprepared to speculate much about this at this point. In recognizing that man only uses a very small portion of their brain, I can only begin to wonder at the possibilities.

Actually what these drugs do is affect the pituitary gland, opening up the crown where the soul or conscious awareness comes and goes from the body. What these drugs do is pretty well documented. They are not safe to take though, and they give beings experiences that they are not ready yet to integrate.

I hadn't heard this information about the pituitary gland. Thank you.

The drugs open up the doorway allowing the consciousness to become aware of the 'empty space'.

Now this is where great mystery comes in, for this empty space that our mind becomes aware of is also inside of us, so it is a part of us. These higher thoughts or mental realms exist within us and without us - higher parts of our being (parts of us that exist in the empty space) thus already know them - even if the part of us in material from does not. The process by which the material self becomes aware of what higher parts of ourselves already knows is called remembering. This is what the Bible means when it says remember your creator. Now our lower consciousness associated with our physical body has no superficial or direct experience or memory of the creator, so when we are told to remember, the Bible is speaking of our lower consciousness becoming aware of our higher self which exists in the empty space along with other parts of creation, and thus aware of what it knows.

This is knowing God and being known by him.

Mysterious, eh?

This seems to make sense with what I already understand and "know" through my own spiritual experiences. It also appears to help identify differences between our spirit and our physical self.

Yes, indeed. Mentally ill people are often seeing into the empty spaces, are having glimpses into the empty spaces, but unable to integrate them. As shared 2/3 of the empty space closest to the material is dark, hostile, malevolent, and so if a personality is not purified or prepared when it develops an ability to peer or see through a crack in their mind, it is going to make contact with some energies that might not be so nice. They might possess them, influence them, or just the awareness of them will drive them insane. Hence it is not good to take drugs or to otherwise try to look into the other realms until one is sufficiently purified so that they will only attract or see energies or beings of light.

What I am talking about is what the Bible is all about, these spiritual realms where the nations exist, where the dominions and principalities of evil reside. In fact, going back to Genesis 1, scripture is speaking of these spiritual realms and worlds. As Apostle Paul shares, these malevolent spiritual beings are the true enemy. They are the ones hurting us. Keeping us in bondage.

This becomes difficult to perceive and distinguish since we are also faced with the knowledge of how our own free agency is used to make our choices; i.e., neither the unclean nor the clean spirits are actually making those choices. However, they certainly are effecting our choices. My head is going to explode.......

Indeed. Most human souls are not ready yet for this, which is only the first step to salvation. If we are going to be free, we have to be free in all spiritual realms, able to perceive and transverse them without being bothered or influenced by malevolent energies and powers.

This is overcoming - no longer being affected negatively by these spiritual beings.

I could not have said this any better!!

Actually, just as we see in scripture, as we follow Christ our ability to perceive and walk in these realms will be awakened. And there are many disciples of Christ in this world who are well aware of these realms. They just don't hang out in mainstream churches. They hang out in the more private Christian gatherings which are separate from worldly authority.

Someone asked what the name of my tradition is. Like many of the original followers of Christ, it was for centuries just called the Way. We sometimes refer to it in English as the Wisdom Fellowship, or the Church of Faith and Wisdom. It is am international network of home churches, like those attended by the first followers of Christ.

It usually requires guidance from the Holy Spirit to find and make contact with such a church. One has to have gone through much healing, or as Paul calls it, much dying to self, before being able to or even wanting to connect with such churches. Very few are called, or able, or even want to connect with Christ on this level.

Shalom!

Viv

Thank you so much for taking the time to share. I appreciate your comments so very much!

Shalom,

jo

[jo7241974]

Honestly, I think you're giving Satan and demons far more credit than they're worth. Christians have a tendency to either ignore Satan and demons entirely, and pretend they don't exist (or only acknowledge them intellectually), or to over-emphasize them way too much and see a demon around every corner, blame every bad thing we do on Satan/demons and see Satan/demons behind every bad thing in the world. You seem to be veering rapidly in the latter direction. That's all I'm saying.

As I have continued to grow in understanding on my journey, I have come to realize how much more there is to know. The layers of understanding that can be revealed in the Bible still do not include the understanding to be learned beyond the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit who leads to all truth; and, depending on where we are and what we are able to handle, will determine what is revealed to us. That said, I would offer that much of mankind does not give Satan and demons the credit they DO deserve. Much of Satan's success is founded upon man's believing he is not the threat he truly is.

God bless,

jo