Demons

[Vivian]

I have no such misgivings deary, it is your alleged story book god that is unworthy of my worship.


Apart from in a story book, what alleged legitimate evidence do you have that these alleged ' spirit demon deings ' literally exist, apart also from your warped imagination?


You are correct in stating the story book god gave no one " Free-Will ".

Absolute Free-Will is the ability to say NO to all offers! Luke 11:23 proves we have no such Free-Will.

Thus your story book god is a tyrant as well as a liar and a hypocrite.

Greetings Composer!

I do not disagree with you, but perhaps can show how your perceptions fit into mine.

My God is indeed a story book God. In my understanding, creation is simply the telling of God's stories in form. The Bible is a collection of the highest or most important stories of this telling in our world - stories that we are all called to enact.

Let me ask you, given that none of us were here 100 years ago and that none of us will be here in a 100 years, is it not possible that we come in for a brief moment in history to act out God's stories?

This is what I have come to believe.

Now in the story I am acting out, these demons exist. Not only can I see the affects of their work in this world, I see them, I feel them. Perhaps if we were together some time in person, I could say did you feel that? And you would say, I felt something odd. And I would say that my friend was a demon! Now look what it is doing.

In my story, God gave us all free will, but the rulers of the world have taken it away. I am not sure why you think Luke 11:23 is proof of no free will, but perhaps if we look at it together you might see something else.

He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

We do have a choice, we do have free will. We can either join Jesus in this story of scattering or gathering, or we cannot. One has the free will to walk away and never give that scripture another thought. One has the free will to give scattering and gathering any definition they wish, making this story of Jesus's out to be anything they wish it to be. And finally, one has the free will to cry out to Jesus, and say What the? What do you mean? I like the story you are telling and want to join in it, so tell me what you mean! And I guess we must include the choice to argue with others about this story book God!

So I believe that, or at least in my story, we have free will as to what story we are going to live in the short period of time we are on earth, depending on our ability to say no to the thoughts and feelings which immobilize us, and paralyze us, even manipulate us into being trapped in feelings that make us reactive instead of consciously responsive.

As we say in my tradition, we each are creating the life or story we want to live, either with conscious awareness and intent, or subconsciously, not being aware of what we are doing. The former is exercising our free will, the later is being in bondage, being controlled through our subconscious to live out a story of our habits and reactions. It must be added that there is a collective or a series of collective stories being lived out by mankind. These collective stories are mostly comprised of the subconscious-creation, as most of humanity is still in bondage, still living in the habitual reactive mode. Now while we each move in the collective story, we each have free will as to how we will respond and move through that story. Again with either subconscious habitual reactions, or conscious choices.

Oh and I agree, the story book God can be a tyrant and a hypocrite, depending on what story we choose to live out. And I also agree that you, that each of us, should pick the story to live that feels right to us. I believe that by following our own understanding with conscious intention and will we will move more quickly to the eventual salvation of our soul, than if we remained in subconscious bondage, letting the world tell us what to do, control us, etc.

So many of us must just say no to the fundamentalist story trying to be forced upon us here!

I also must add that the story we eventually choose to live is mostly dependent on something we cannot see - the maturity of our soul. We are all at different places in our journey, and how much of our free will we exercise, and how much of what we exercise is beneficial to the soul journey, is dependent on the spiritual maturity of our soul, hence we all live out different stories, and are drawn to those who are living out, again either consciously or subconsciously, a story similar to ours.

Shalom and may we all pick the best stories to enact in our short life!

Viv

[Composer]

Greetings Composer!

I do not disagree with you, but perhaps can show how your perceptions fit into mine.

. . . . The Bible is a collection of the highest or most important stories of this telling in our world - stories that we are all called to enact. Viv

So there goes your alleged Free Will!

IF you truly believe the stories pre-ordain our required acting out of them, then you are admitting you are merely a puppet in the hands of the story book writer?

What about other alleged ' holy book stories ' like the Book Of Mormon or the Qu'ran, do you also embrace them likewise?

Cheers!

[Composer]

Consider the Bible a book of words woven with a code unseen or understood by the general reader. The key to unlocking that code has been provided for all of mankind to use. That key is the Holy Spirit. Although He is available to all, the only ones who will hear Him and recognize Him are those who are meek and humble who truly want to know God which the Bible teaches about. Until a man humbles and truly seeks God, the Holy Spirit will not begin to reveal that code.

As in times of war, there are secret codes hidden within messages. . . . .

So which is it to be?

Mark 4:21
And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

Hiding the light in secret codes or manifesting it openly like a candlestick for all?

The story book doesn't agree with your hypothesis of hiding light in secret codes etc. thus your current understanding is flawed.

Thanks for your comments however.

Cheers!

[franktalk]

This thread is about demons and how they can influence people in negative ways. But the flesh can also be a stumbling stone. And pride is one way in which the unknowing mind can manifest the wrong path.

1 John 2:16 (King James Version)

16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

But pride is not limited to the flesh, for we know that Satan was filled with pride and this is his path to destruction.

Ezekiel 28:17 (King James Version)

17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

We know from scripture that Satan's pride is more important to him than his freedom. Knowing full well the power of God Satan chooses to run down his own path. And in order to further feel good about himself he uses any method to obtain followers whom he cares little about.

So our life can be viewed as a choice between two paths. One of God and goes towards the light. And the other is of the world and goes towards darkness. Satan and his helpers are always willing to help us along the path to darkness.

So when I see post on any thread in which someone is filled with the world and pride in them self I feel sorry for that individual. And I wonder how can God bring this person back who is so blind. But God knows the true heart of someone. He knows how to peel back those layers of pride and worldly knowledge so that one is only left with their soul and no covering. In that broken state God awaits for the cry of His child. And as a parent He is there to comfort the child when the lesson is learned.

But God gives us only a short time to get on track. God has infinite patience but our life is short.

[Composer]

This thread is about demons and how they can influence people in negative ways.

Demons is simply a metaphor for diseases and ailments that couldn't yet be diagnosed and more so the belief in ' demons ' (inferior divine spirit beings that caused strange bad things and strange good things (unusual good or bad luck or unusual well being)) was limited in the most part to the upper northern parts of Iraq.

We know from scripture that Satan's pride is more important to him than his freedom. Knowing full well the power of God Satan chooses to run down his own path. And in order to further feel good about himself he uses any method to obtain followers whom he cares little about.

#No Satan: But my YLT (Young's Literal Translation) and my EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT NT Interlienar makes absolutely NO mention of the word ' Satan ' in the story book text?

Satan and his helpers are always willing to help us along the path to darkness.

Please see above - #No Satan:

[Vivian]

So there goes your alleged Free Will!

IF you truly believe the stories pre-ordain our required acting out of them, then you are admitting you are merely a puppet in the hands of the story book writer?

What about other alleged ' holy book stories ' like the Book Of Mormon or the Qu'ran, do you also embrace them likewise?

Cheers!

Actually, Composer, these stories were written before our world came into being, written in Light and Energy. How these stories are interpreted and lived and fulfilled in this world are dependent on us.

Another way of putting it, these stories were created in the beginning of creation, in the highest heavens, or at the foundation of the world, as the Bible puts it. How the stories unfold at this level of creation will unfold as this level of creation unfolds, which we participate in. And as we unfold at this level, creation in a higher level evolves and changes, the stories thus continually evolving and changing.

It is actually a marvelous play!

As Paul says:

For me, all things are permitted, but not all things are beneficial. It is up to us as heirs to the Kingdom to determine how God's Will is played out here, or what is beneficial to creation at this level. As we are perfected or healed/made whole in the Light of Christ, our play will become increasing perfect, whole.

What Joy and Bliss to play in God's Creation!

Regarding the BofM and the Quran, I consider these less perfected stories than those of Biblical Scripture, useful for some of humanity - just as is the Bible at a superficial level - so they do have a purpose in creation.

Viv

[Composer]

Actually, Composer, these stories were written before our world came into being, written in Light and Energy. How these stories are interpreted and lived and fulfilled in this world are dependent on us.

Another way of putting it, these stories were created in the beginning of creation, in the highest heavens, or at the foundation of the world, as the Bible puts it. How the stories unfold at this level of creation will unfold as this level of creation unfolds, which we participate in. And as we unfold at this level, creation in a higher level evolves and changes, the stories thus continually evolving and changing.

Oh deary that is convoluted BS and your legitimate evidence remains a constant zero!

It is actually a marvelous play!

Men playing games with story book stories corrupting your mind more like.

As Paul says:

For me, all things are permitted, but not all things are beneficial. It is up to us as heirs to the Kingdom to determine how God's Will is played out here, or what is beneficial to creation at this level. As we are perfected or healed/made whole in the Light of Christ, our play will become increasing perfect, whole.

What Joy and Bliss to play in God's Creation!

It would assist if you provided the story book quote along with why you believe it has merit when all you are doing in reality is sprouting the fanciful notions of men under the guise of allegedly quoting yet another story book character called Paul?

Regarding the BofM and the Quran, I consider these less perfected stories than those of Biblical Scripture, useful for some of humanity - just as is the Bible at a superficial level - so they do have a purpose in creation.

Viv

And your legitimate evidence that the bible is the words of a god given to men remains a total of zero and you also believe in other story books apparently, but not quite as much as what you believe based upon nothing legitimate for what you say you do believe?

Please get back to me when you think you actually have something legitimate to offer to support your current ' empty opinions ' so far?

Thank you

[Vivian]

Greetings Composer!

I give you as evidence.

You are exercising your free will here on Tweb!

Shalom!

Viv

[Composer]

Greetings Composer!

I give you as evidence.

You are exercising your free will here on Tweb!

Shalom!

Viv

I am restricted to what I can say here by Moderators who have the authority as Moderators to override my posts here and already have and in order for me to post at all I had to agree to the Forum's policies. That is not absolute Free-Will deary, just as the story book choice to believe or not believe is NOT absolute Free-Will. Absolute Free-Will is the ability to choose or reject your story book god without fear of negative reprisals against me for not agreeing to those restrictive terms. (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23) KJV self contradicting story book

Better luck next time!

[jo7241974]

I am restricted to what I can say here by Moderators who have the authority as Moderators to override my posts here and already have and in order for me to post at all I had to agree to the Forum's policies. That is not absolute Free-Will deary, just as the story book choice to believe or not believe is NOT absolute Free-Will. Absolute Free-Will is the ability to choose or reject your story book god without fear of negative reprisals against me for not agreeing to those restrictive terms. (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23) KJV self contradicting story book

Better luck next time!

Tweb is exercising their free will which happens to interfere with your desires to exercise your free will. As you can see, man imposes his free will over the free will of other men. This is being done by man; not by God. However, your interpretation of what is happening is all too common as man is happy to blame God because their perception of the situation is skewed.

Do you realize that since you have recognized that you yourself do not have absolute free will that you have been victimized by man and not by God? Yet it appears that even YOU are blaming the God you claim does not exist by pointing to the Bible due to your own feelings of rejection caused by not being able to exercise your absolute free will here on Tweb. "Self contradicting" is taking place within you as has been evidenced by your own words.

God bless,

jo

[franktalk]

Composer,

You believe in science and in nature and the senses. You say that there is no such thing as supernatural forces because you can see no evidence of them. Yet you declare you have free will. Do you realize how stupid that makes you sound? Have you thought out what you say?

As a naturalist you believe in a cause and effect universe ruled by natural laws. That directly leads to materialism and all that comes with it. As the dice was cast in the big bang everything that follows was predestined by the original conditions of the universe. Each action leads to other actions but no action is independent but caused by actions and material circumstance leading to a series of cause and effect relationships. This is the natural world you believe in. The feeling you have of free will is not real. You are a product of many preexisting conditions before you were born. And each thing you do is a result of those preconditions. You can't fool a cause and effect universe no matter how you "feel" about it.

Each neuron in your brain, each atom in each neuron changes from one moment to the next because of the actions of chemicals and electrical signals that were set in motion by others the moment before. You are ruled by the initial conditions of the universe. This is what you believe, you have stated you believe in science. Science has never seen free will, they have only seen behavior caused by other environments. Each can be broken into a cause and effect string going back to the big bang. So what is this junk about your free will? Are you telling me that you believe in something outside of science? Are you telling me that you believe in a force that is not measurable by science?

At least I am consistent with what I believe. It is you that is a pile of contradicting statements.

[jo7241974]

Vivian;3107676]Greetings Composer!

I do not disagree with you, but perhaps can show how your perceptions fit into mine.

My God is indeed a story book God. In my understanding, creation is simply the telling of God's stories in form. The Bible is a collection of the highest or most important stories of this telling in our world - stories that we are all called to enact.

Let me ask you, given that none of us were here 100 years ago and that none of us will be here in a 100 years, is it not possible that we come in for a brief moment in history to act out God's stories?

This is what I have come to believe.

Now in the story I am acting out, these demons exist. Not only can I see the affects of their work in this world, I see them, I feel them. Perhaps if we were together some time in person, I could say did you feel that? And you would say, I felt something odd. And I would say that my friend was a demon! Now look what it is doing.

Hi Viv!

We were studying the story of Jacob's son, Joseph, the other night. I recognized how WE are living out our own story, and how intricately our own life is interwoven into the fabric of the Bible's teachings. I even saw Joseph as a type for Christ, and many other types were represented as well. I saw how demons effected the choices made, and I saw how God was able to use bad choices to bring about good so that His purposes could still be fulfilled. Joseph recognized this as well!

In my story, God gave us all free will, but the rulers of the world have taken it away.

Indeed! The powers of darkness influence man which is manifested through greed, jealousy, desires for power, etc. Thus free will becomes restricted and, sometimes, completely physically removed. At that time we can only exercise free will in our thoughts, where we still battle between good and evil.

I am not sure why you think Luke 11:23 is proof of no free will, but perhaps if we look at it together you might see something else.

He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

We do have a choice, we do have free will. We can either join Jesus in this story of scattering or gathering, or we cannot. One has the free will to walk away and never give that scripture another thought. One has the free will to give scattering and gathering any definition they wish, making this story of Jesus's out to be anything they wish it to be. And finally, one has the free will to cry out to Jesus, and say What the? What do you mean? I like the story you are telling and want to join in it, so tell me what you mean! And I guess we must include the choice to argue with others about this story book God!

I think you are so right on!

So I believe that, or at least in my story, we have free will as to what story we are going to live in the short period of time we are on earth, depending on our ability to say no to the thoughts and feelings which immobilize us, and paralyze us, even manipulate us into being trapped in feelings that make us reactive instead of consciously responsive.

As we say in my tradition, we each are creating the life or story we want to live, either with conscious awareness and intent, or subconsciously, not being aware of what we are doing. The former is exercising our free will, the later is being in bondage, being controlled through our subconscious to live out a story of our habits and reactions. It must be added that there is a collective or a series of collective stories being lived out by mankind. These collective stories are mostly comprised of the subconscious-creation, as most of humanity is still in bondage, still living in the habitual reactive mode. Now while we each move in the collective story, we each have free will as to how we will respond and move through that story. Again with either subconscious habitual reactions, or conscious choices.

Might I offer that we cannot be "one" while in this condition. However, we can experience an abbreviated form of "one-ness" with others whose souls have "matured". Interestingly, I have discovered there is no loss of our own identity when this takes place; rather, a shared purity of one goal. At least, that has been my experience so far.

Oh and I agree, the story book God can be a tyrant and a hypocrite, depending on what story we choose to live out. And I also agree that you, that each of us, should pick the story to live that feels right to us. I believe that by following our own understanding with conscious intention and will we will move more quickly to the eventual salvation of our soul, than if we remained in subconscious bondage, letting the world tell us what to do, control us, etc.

So many of us must just say no to the fundamentalist story trying to be forced upon us here!

Yes, it is easier for God to reach those who are hot or cold. Those who are luke warm seem to be less aware of choices which exist.

I also must add that the story we eventually choose to live is mostly dependent on something we cannot see - the maturity of our soul. We are all at different places in our journey, and how much of our free will we exercise, and how much of what we exercise is beneficial to the soul journey, is dependent on the spiritual maturity of our soul, hence we all live out different stories, and are drawn to those who are living out, again either consciously or subconsciously, a story similar to ours.

Shalom and may we all pick the best stories to enact in our short life!

Viv

Another awesome post.

Shalom,

jo

[Vivian]

I am restricted to what I can say here by Moderators who have the authority as Moderators to override my posts here and already have and in order for me to post at all I had to agree to the Forum's policies. That is not absolute Free-Will deary, just as the story book choice to believe or not believe is NOT absolute Free-Will. Absolute Free-Will is the ability to choose or reject your story book god without fear of negative reprisals against me for not agreeing to those restrictive terms. (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23) KJV self contradicting story book

Better luck next time!

Perhaps we can use your example here to explore what is meant by free will.

You are saying that you do not have absolute free will here at Tweb because you cannot make the moderators here do as you wish?

So then absolute free will by your definition means being able to make others do as we wish? Absolute free will means that we can take away the free will of others? By this definition, there can be only one being with absolute free will, and that would be a Despot Ruler, and all other beings would be his slaves subject to his whims and wishes.

We have had times and places where such singular absolute free will existed in human history. A sort of bestial society, very much like other animals living in our world.

But for humanity, such arrangements did not last, did they?

I offer that the mere fact that humanity has moved beyond such bestial arrangements is proof of the existence of God. We are animals, just like the lions, and the tigers, and the elephants, yet we have evolved beyond such singular absolute free will arrangements. I offer that we have moved beyond these because there is something higher in us, that pulls us out of bestial living into a higher arrangement, which I would call cooperative free will.

This means that we have free will up to the point of forcing our will upon others. This also means that we defer our free will for the sake of the collective, to maintain order, peace security. In other words we have free will as long as we do not impede others right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And so while you are not allowed to be an Despot Ruler and exercise absolute free will, you are allowed the freedom to choose what you are going to do within the confines of what is deemed best for collective. Those in charge of Tweb have determined what is best for the collective here, and limit the exercise of free will in posting, but we are free to leave, to go to another forum, to start our own forum.

This is the nature of cooperative free will and is the nature of the free will granted to us by our creator. Attempting to have singular absolute free will is trying to make ourselves one of those lesser gods, with every other being in bondage to us.

When we awaken to love, we awaken to such things, we awaken to the existence of God. We are told to love others as our self for a reason. The reason is that we are interconnected so that hurting others is hurting our self. The negative consequences that you are speaking of is the consequence of bringing harm upon yourself. If you hit your self in the face, you are going to suffer pain and injury. If you hurt others, to whom you are intimately connected, you only bring harm to yourself.

These negative consequences of which you speak are another proof of the existence of God.


Shalom!

Viv

[Vivian]

Hi Viv!

Hi Jo!

We were studying the story of Jacob's son, Joseph, the other night. I recognized how WE are living out our own story, and how intricately our own life is interwoven into the fabric of the Bible's teachings. I even saw Joseph as a type for Christ, and many other types were represented as well. I saw how demons effected the choices made, and I saw how God was able to use bad choices to bring about good so that His purposes could still be fulfilled. Joseph recognized this as well!

I too have been studying the story of Joseph!

Indeed, God uses all things so that his purposes will be fulfilled. We do have free will, but what I was calling cooperative free will in the post to Composer is the kind of free will God has given to his creation. We are not free to hurt others. There will be consequences, because hurting others is hurting ourselves, if for no other reason hurting others impedes God's purposes, which is the ultimate benefit of all - especially since it is for God's purposes that we have been designed! But even God can work around our hurting others, turning all for good.

Indeed! The powers of darkness influence man which is manifested through greed, jealousy, desires for power, etc. Thus free will becomes restricted and, sometimes, completely physically removed. At that time we can only exercise free will in our thoughts, where we still battle between good and evil.

An open secret is that we cannot know the God of the First Commandment - God Most High, until we see our bondage, until we cry out for freedom, and until we meet our savior - the one who is freeing us from bondage.

Really, how can we know God our Savior unless we know our bondage?

I think you are so right on!


Might I offer that we cannot be "one" while in this condition. However, we can experience an abbreviated form of "one-ness" with others whose souls have "matured". Interestingly, I have discovered there is no loss of our own identity when this takes place; rather, a shared purity of one goal. At least, that has been my experience so far.

Yes, the purity of Unity is distorted here. Yet we can access it and bring it down - walking in the awareness that behind apparent individuality is Sacred Unity. Once we see and experience this, we can do nothing else but surrender ourselves to God and His Work of salvation for the world.

There is nothing we want more in this world than for others to gain the same awareness.

Yes, it is easier for God to reach those who are hot or cold. Those who are luke warm seem to be less aware of choices which exist.

Indeed. These negative consequences actually have a purpose - it is through consequences that God teaches us, whether they are positive or negative. So without thought word or deed that results in consequences how can God reach us? How can he teach us?

Another awesome post.

Shalom,

jo

Another delightful response!

Shalom, my friend.

Viv

[Composer]

Composer,

You believe in science and in nature and the senses. You say that there is no such thing as supernatural forces because you can see no evidence of them.

Did I say that deary, where?

Read my profile deary, I DO believe in an ID (supernatural as much as it is not likely to be human) however it is unworthy overall of my respect & worship.

Yet you declare you have free will.

No deary, Viv was alleging we have Free will. Read my posts deary.

Do you realize how stupid that makes you sound?

The stupidity is all yours deary and after you read my posts correctly you will agree.

Have you thought out what you say?

Get back to me when you want to try again deary!

At least I am consistent with what I believe. It is you that is a pile of contradicting statements.

Allegedly such as deary?

Better luck next time!