The Bible: Sufficient or in Need of Tradition

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Originally posted by Arsenios

I don't believe in no stinkin' ORGANIZED RELIGION...
A POX upon it's malodorous and fetid putressence!
I am an Easterrn Orthodox Christian...
[Demonstrably NOT organized!]

lol...nice to see you also get hot under the collar.

My brother! That was an artistic endeavor that had no heat whatsoever, but was instead a crafted blast that was designed to entertain you with truth...

Heavens to Mergatroid!

A.

[justsumguy]

They say what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.
Heavens to Mergatroid.

Anyway...I think I've proven that the "clarity" portion as presented in the Protestant statement is at least questionable.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

lol...it's not being thin-skinned..I'm just making a point that you are part of the same club I am.

Well DAAAAGGHHH!

We are all on the same page on THAT issue...

A.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

They say what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.
Heavens to Mergatroid.

Anyway...I think I've proven that the "clarity" portion as presented in the Protestant statement is at least questionable.

Roger THAT!

Beyond a reasonable doubt...

Thank-you for the romp!

A

[justsumguy]

My pleasure and thanks to you also.

I'm sure there will be more romps. All in the interest of understanding.

[37818]

Satan does not KNOW God, not even as much as Adam KNEW Eve, let alone as the salvation of man in God is the KNOWING of God...

John 17:3 And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Perhaps these words of John will help you<one> understand the relationship of knowing and salvation...

<snip>

Arsenios

Here is something we agree on.

[daniel1212]

The very Body of Christ that wrote it affirmed it as Canon... But the ONLY WITNESS that you have of the reliability of Scripture is that of the Church that wrote and kept the Scriptures.....

The first issue is what constitutes the church, or upon what basis is its authority determined. The Scriptures came to be realized as God-breathed due to their unique qualities, first by their accompanying supernatural attestation, and by effects of regeneration which result from faith and obedience in them, as well as superior morality, surpassing wisdom, enduring ethos, predictive prophecy, archeological proofs. The judgment of spiritual men, (1Cor. 2:15) is also part of such, but their own spirituality is judged by pre-existing revelation. Councicular decisions can recognize inspiration, as we recognize a true man of God, but it to their unique qualities that it owes its enduring acceptance. The NY Times best seller list is not responsible for the quality of the books listed, and only little responsible for their perpetuation, and much less to their achieving a classical status due to their inherent quality.

In addition, the authenticity of men like the Lord and His apostles was not due to their lineage, though for Christ this was necessary aspect, but power and purity and faithfulness to that which was written, (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 10:38; 17:2; 2Cor. 6:1-10) which attested to their historical claims. And we cannot claim to be disciples of Christ with Biblical lineage without spiritual fruit which accompanies salvation. (Heb. 6:9,10; 1Jn. 5:13) (And which i come short in)

And as the kingdom of God is not in word (our say so) but power (1Cor. 4:20), the church is only a witness to the Scriptures as it manifests corresponding qualities. The authenticity of the, or a, true church does not rest in historical lineage any more than that of true Jews does, (Rm. 2:28,29) but in effectual faith in "the gospel of the grace of God," (Acts 20:24) for it is by such faith in the Rock of our salvation, Christ the corner stone, that the church exists and has its members. (1Cor. 12:13)

By such faith the church overcomes the gates of Hell, and it thus also has historical visible continuity and , but the latter is a quality also possessed by non-Christian religion, and God can raised up stones from anywhere to continue to build His church, which does have . (cf. Mt. 3:16) And it was by God raising up men who were rejected by the establishment that God preserved the faith.

It is true that it was was thru said church that the N.T. Scriptures were written, and to the church they are entrusted, but this does not mean that all that the church holds to be truth is truth, any more than all that those who once sat in Moses seat (Mt. 23:2) were assuredly infallible. Rather, just as the Lord reproved the Jews for "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" as being contrary to the plain teaching of Scripture, (Mk. 7:7-13) and the noble Bereans examined the teaching of the very apostles by them, (Acts 17:11) so also all teaching must be subject to demonstrable Scriptural warrant.

I have never understood how a person can be a sola-Scriptura advocate and then NOT believe the very Scriptura he or she is thereby seemingly committed to... Yet the answer, which is one's own personal and private Papal Authority within the cathedral of one's own private mind, is really hard to deny... It boils down to "me and my Bible and the Holy Spirit alone", and thereby denies the Body of Christ....

Continued: This does not make each one a pope, who lays claim to an assured formulaic infallible, but instead it can only hold to the Scriptures as being the only objective infallible authority on earth, with it, not the church, being affirmed to be so (2Tim. 3:16)

The Scriptures materially provide for the church and teaching office, aAnd SS does not reject history, creeds, or the magisterium, but makes all subject to the Scriptures. But as said before, the canon being closed, to hold another stream of purported revelation as equal to Scripture is to essentially add to the canon, which separated wheat from chaff.

Do you not believe the Bible when it tells you that it is the Church that is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth against which the Gates of Hell shall NOT prevail?

It is grounded on and supportive of the Truth, but it is dependent on the Truth and subject to it. But you do not build doctrine on ambiguous texts, but this does not mean that all that the church holds to be truth is truth. Nowhere will you find a 2Tim. 3:16 type text that states that all the church teaches is inspired by God, even if they say it is. And it is by faith in the Scriptures, even if not yet completed then, that the church exists, and by which further revelation was proven.

I mean, IF you believe in sola-Scriptura, then you absolutely MUST believe in the Holy Tradition of the Church...

Again, what judges what. What constitutes the "us" which heretics separate from. (1Jn. 2:19) It is revealing that those who do not hold the Scriptures as supreme are the ones who deviate from the most foundational truths which SS churches contend for, while the former also includes those who hold to such Scripturally unwarranted doctrines as while they promote doctrines such as praying to the departed.

To reiterate, the Word of God, albeit unwritten, existed before Israel, and though it was thru Moses that the foundational Scriptures were written, they manifested that they were to be subject to them. And it was by power, purity and faithfulness to existing revelation that Moses and the apostles were established as being able to add new doctrines, and if the church had not closed the canon, and had the manifestation of apostolic power, then extra-Biblical traditions could be added, though again the principal of Acts 17:11 would apply. As it is SS churches do have extra-Biblical traditions traditions also, from precise liturgy to a type of wedding ceremony to Christmas, but they cannot hold these as binding upon souls without sound Scriptural warrant, though in observing the latter they basically do.

The obvious problem here is that it makes obedience subject to the qualified assent of each believer, thus promoting disunity, versus "assent of faith" by implicit confidence an assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM). However, unity itself is not a goal of Godliness, and division because of truth is better than unity in error. (1Cor. 11:19) And the quality of the unity resulting from Berean type hearts and its method is great in quality, even if not in quantity, than that which is based upon confidence in men, even if it is in God to lead them. While the supernatural testimony for men like Moses, the Messiah was great enough to compel such faith, this was not alone, and is not the case today.

In short what i am saying is that while men seek to find security in and establish legitimacy by formal historical lineage and ecclesiastical structures, and has even resorted to using the sword of men to gain territory and to punish theological dissidents, the church is so constituted that it can only authenticate itself Scripturally by God's attestation of power, and of purity and Scriptural probity, not handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of truth commending themselves to every mans conscience the sight of God." (2Cor. 4:2) And those who are contentious and obey not the truth, and who wrest the Scriptures to their destruction, (2Pt. 3:16) are made manifest by their contrast with such, and not by absence from a certain ecclesiastical entity which claims legitimate historical validity, but is largely absent of such power and life. And i must seek to have more myself.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

The first issue is what constitutes the church,

The Biblical answer is that it is constituted by the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

or upon what basis is its authority determined.

Preoccupation with its own authority, unlike Rome, is NOT a feature of the Body of Christ, nor even of Christ, but the giving of a good witness is...

The Scriptures came to be realized as God-breathed due to their unique qualities, first by their accompanying supernatural attestation, and by effects of regeneration which result from faith and obedience in them, as well as superior morality, surpassing wisdom, enduring ethos, predictive prophecy, archeological proofs.

The one who tells you that the Scriptures are God-breathed walked in union with God in the Power of the Holy Spirit, and established Christ's Church according to revelation from Christ, and he then went on to himself write about half of the NEW Testament... His words, as he wrote them, btw referred to the OLD Testament Scriptures...

The writing of the New Testament therefore was done by holy men of God who bore God in their very persons... And the Hallmark of the Church is the presence of such men and women IN Her from generation to generation... These are the God-bearing Holy Fathers of the Church, who like Paul, birthed spiritually the new generation of holy and God-bearing Fathers... [For you have many teachers/instructors in Christ, but few Fathers...(Paul)]

The judgment of spiritual men, (1Cor. 2:15) is also part of such, but their own spirituality is judged by pre-existing revelation.

Have you ever seen anyone's "spirituality" judged by anything OTHER than a PERSON...???

You can stare at or read the Bible until the cows come home, and the Bible judges nothing, remaining as silent as the tomb... But the PERSON staring at it or reading it sure does do some judging, and the Bible Judgers I know tend to judge mostly to their own judgmental condemnation... The members of the Church, otoh, tend to avoid judging others, for they believe that Christ disciples humility, and that the only judgment that Christ instructs is self-judgment, which is self-denial...

Can you show me even one passage where Christ says that the Bible judges the holy ones of God?

Paul himself tells us that he does not even judge himself, much less in any way give heed to the judgments of men, but attends only to God, to please Him... And he does not turn himself over to an inanimate object, but to the living God... And we are all discipled to do just this, and the reading of Scripture is a part of our daily life in this effort to write the Word of God in the FLESHY TABLETS of our hearts...

The NY Times best seller list is not responsible for the quality of the books listed, and only little responsible for their perpetuation, and much less to their achieving a classical status due to their inherent quality.

They did not write the books they publish, and they publish for material gain... The Body of Christ wrote for its own, and not for the world... The members of the body evangelized the world, but by their words and deeds, and not by passing out Bibles... No printing presses till the 15th century...

The Church, otoh, wrote its books, and preserved them in the Churches for Spiritual gain... Which gain was in turn poured out upon the world... This is a part of what it means to be a spiritual priesthood, as Christians...

In addition, the authenticity of men like the Lord and His apostles was not due to their lineage, though for Christ this was necessary aspect, but power and purity and faithfulness to that which was written, (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 10:38; 17:2; 2Cor. 6:1-10) which attested to their historical claims.

The Authenticity of Christ IS Christ, the Son of the Father, for He is God... The Written is the record of the Church of the Circumcision under which He was birthed by the Blessed Virgin... And the Prophets foretold His Coming... And wrote it down... And thereby they witnessed for Him...


'nuff!

Arsenios

[justsumguy]

So can I apply for a position of recognition as a holy man who bears God in my very person? Is there a head office where I can leave my resume or do I just have to be proclaimed as such by one who is recognized as a part of the body of Christ? Or can I simply give good witness...wait a minute...is there a board of good witness?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

So can I apply for a position of RECOGNITION as a holy man who bears God in my very person? Is there a head office where I can leave my resume or do I just have to be proclaimed as such by one who is recognized as a part of the body of Christ? Or can I simply give good witness...wait a minute...is there a board of good witness?

IF you are a follower of Christ, you will seek to avoid ALL forms of recognition, for "behold, I am lowly and meek..." Christ Himself fled from recognition, muzzled the demons who recognized Him, and instructed His disciples and those whom He cured or who witnessed what He did to tell no one... Not that it worked, mind you... But in that instruction, He set before us a path to follow, and in the following of it, the essence of which is humility, the Orthodox Faith does not recognize a Saint's existence until AFTER his or her repose...

In this life, saints are known as such by some while alive, but are known by many after death, for it is then that they no longer have the danger of worldly temptations, and they can do more for more people... Just as Christ did more for His disciples AFTER his departure from them, for it is then that He gave them the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, which previously they had not been strengthened in, and had not been able to impart to others by the laying on of hands, and on and on...

One hallmark of sainthood is the seeking of nothing in this fallen creation for one's self, and thus the seeking of recognition is foreign to the discipleship of the Church...

Arsenios

[justsumguy]

IF you are a follower of Christ, you will seek to avoid ALL forms of recognition, for "behold, I am lowly and meek..." Christ Himself fled from recognition, muzzled the demons who recognized Him, and instructed His disciples and those whom He cured or who witnessed what He did to tell no one... Not that it worked, mind you... But in that instruction, He set before us a path to follow, and in the following of it, the essence of which is humility, the Orthodox Faith does not recognize a Saint's existence until AFTER his or her repose...

In this life, saints are known as such by some while alive, but are known by many after death, for it is then that they no longer have the danger of worldly temptations, and they can do more for more people... Just as Christ did more for His disciples AFTER his departure from them, for it is then that He gave them the Holy Spirit of Pentecost, which previously they had not been strengthened in, and had not been able to impart to others by the laying on of hands, and on and on...

One hallmark of sainthood is the seeking of nothing in this fallen creation for one's self, and thus the seeking of recognition is foreign to the discipleship of the Church...

Arsenios

Too complicated for me. I'm just going to stick to trusting God to speak me to through the Bible and hopefully I'll get something out of other people that is useful.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Too complicated for me.

Me too... [ :-0>>>

I'm just going to stick to trusting God to speak me to through the Bible and hopefully I'll get something out of other people that is useful.

The Truth is simple...
It is the explanations that get complicated...
We speak but of humility...

Arsenios

[37818]

The Biblical answer is that it is constituted by the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

No, the Body of Christ are the saints who are the believers in Christ (Romans 8:9, 1 John 5:12, Galatians 3:29) and Christ who is also God is the Head of the body.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Daniel asked: The first issue is: "What constitutes the church?"

I replied: The Biblical answer is that it is constituted by the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

No, the Body of Christ ARE
the saints
[who are the believers in Christ (Romans 8:9, 1 John 5:12, Galatians 3:29)]
and [eg whereas...] Christ
[who is also God]
is the Head of the body.

It took me a while to figure out that you were contrasting the Head of the Body of Christ with the Body of Christ Who is Her Head... And that you were affirming that the Body of Christ is merely a human corpus comprised of believers...

Now if this were true, then the Israelites were the Body of Christ... For Christ led them, was their head, and they, in varying degrees of successes and failures, followed Him...

You see, the question I would ask, rather than what constitutes the Church, is "What IS the Church?"

And the answer to that is: "The Body of Christ..."

And this answer, which is the Biblical answer, makes of the Body of Christ a "DIVINE ORGANISM", and this Divine Organism has its own Head, WHO is Christ Jesus... The faithful are then MEMBERS of this Body, joined to it in a spiritual and ontological way by Baptism INTO that Body, wherein in a Mystery [Baptism] one is entered into the Death of Christ, and participates in His Resurrection by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, living in obedience to the Commandments of Christ...

Without this understanding, the suffering of Paul for the Church is but a humanitarian effort... When Christ blinded him on the Road to Damascus, Christ did NOT ask him "Why are you persecuting My faithful ones?" Instead He asked of Saul: "Saul, Saul... Why persecuteth thou ME?" And this question identifies the Church AS the Body of Christ, for it IS Christ Who is ontologically living in His members, and His members are ontologically living in Him... In short, the Church is a Mystery, in which we have believed, from the very beginnings, and which the Risen Lord Himself attested to Saul on the Road to Damascus...

The Church, the Body of Christ, IS Christ, my Brother...

In a certain and Mystical way, it is the ongoing incarnation of our Lord...

Arsenios

[37818]

Daniel asked: The first issue is: "What constitutes the church?"

I replied: The Biblical answer is that it is constituted by the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...



It took me a while to figure out that you were contrasting the Head of the Body of Christ with the Body of Christ Who is Her Head... And that you were affirming that the Body of Christ is merely a human corpus comprised of believers...

Now if this were true, then the Israelites were the Body of Christ... For Christ led them, was their head, and they, in varying degrees of successes and failures, followed Him...

You see, the question I would ask, rather than what constitutes the Church, is "What IS the Church?"

And the answer to that is: "The Body of Christ..."

Yes, with that explanation I agree.

And this answer, which is the Biblical answer, makes of the Body of Christ a "DIVINE ORGANISM", and this Divine Organism has its own Head, WHO is Christ Jesus... The faithful are then MEMBERS of this Body, joined to it in a spiritual and ontological way by Baptism INTO that Body, wherein in a Mystery [Baptism] one is entered into the Death of Christ,

Here, you have things confused, I think, because of false teaching on the teaching of baptisms [plural]. (The error of [water]baptismal regeneration.)

Water baptism [immersion] which is into[for] the death of Christ. (Romans 6:3, 4.) The believer's burial with Christ.
But it is the baptism in the Holy Spirit which places believers into[for] the body of Christ as one. (1 Corinthians 12:13.)(Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12.).

. . . and participates in His Resurrection by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood, living in obedience to the Commandments of Christ.

No. The one time observance of water immersion by the believer is in the resurrection coming out of the water, signifying one is not going to live for the world, but for God. Where as the observance of the supper, is a remembrance of the Lord's death. And nothing more. But is an existing communion of the one body of Christ being they are already that one body (1 Corinthians 10:17. Galatians 3:26,).
[quote[ . . .Without this understanding, the suffering of Paul for the Church is but a humanitarian effort...[/quote] If we have a wrong understanging regarding the body of Christ and how one becomes a part of the body of Christ, being a wrong understanding, it becomes that very thing.

When Christ blinded him on the Road to Damascus, Christ did NOT ask him "Why are you persecuting My faithful ones?" Instead He asked of Saul: "Saul, Saul... Why persecuteth thou ME?" And this question identifies the Church AS the Body of Christ, for it IS Christ Who is ontologically living in His members, and His members are ontologically living in Him... In short, the Church is a Mystery, in which we have believed, from the very beginnings, and which the Risen Lord Himself attested to Saul on the Road to Damascus...

Excellent point.

The Church, the Body of Christ, IS Christ, my Brother...

Yes, being made up of those whom He has saved.

In a certain and Mystical way, it is the ongoing incarnation of our Lord...

No. Nothing mystical about it. Either one belongs to Christ or one does not. (Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12; 2 Corinthians 13:5.)