Originally posted by Darth Executor
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Yes Virginia, higher minimum wage kills jobs...
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThere's a reason America is the economic powerhouse of the world."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post$6.73 is closer to the price of a combo meal. A Big Mac by itself is around $3 to $4.
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Why not make the minimum wage $15 in a place like California for 5 years and measure the impact?
If it turns out to be a problem then roll it back.
I think we should run some tests before implementing a FEDERAL minimum wage - which seems to me to suffer from several inherent problems, not the least of which is that $10 in Alabama is much closer to a living wage (Rent: $600 per month) vs. California (Rent: $1700 per month).Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostWhy not make the minimum wage $15 in a place like California for 5 years and measure the impact?
If it turns out to be a problem then roll it back.
I think we should run some tests before implementing a FEDERAL minimum wage - which seems to me to suffer from several inherent problems, not the least of which is that $10 in Alabama is much closer to a living wage (Rent: $600 per month) vs. California (Rent: $1700 per month).
2. We already have a federal minimum wage ($7.25) - but states are allowed to increase that to whatever they want. The idjuts are wanting to make the federal minimum to be $15/hour which is too high for many parts of the country.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View PostBig macs in the US are a lot less than 6.73. Actually just about everything is a lot cheaper in the US compared to australia, where everything's hideously expensive. So these comparisons make little sense.
Although, I question the math. I don't really eat McDonald's so I don't know the exact prices, but looking online it seems like Big Macs are $3.99 in the US (though they may be cheaper or more expensive depending on the specific area), and if I convert that to Australian dollars via xe.com, that's $5.30 AUD, meaning that the Big Macs are cheaper in the US.Last edited by Terraceth; 04-20-2017, 06:35 PM.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe OP study is misleading. A higher minimum wage tends to create as many new jobs as it kills old ones. The study only tells half the story because it found that it killed a few restaurant jobs. It didn't study what new jobs were created. (The people getting paid more money then spend that money on goods, which means other companies employ more staff to cover the increased demands for services and products)
Some people (consumers and/or entrepreneurs) must be paying more to those getting paid more, so those payers have, in total, the same amount less money to spend on other goods. There's no net more money to be spent. But at least some prices are higher, so that same amount of money is unable to purchase as much.
And even if you were to ignore the rise in prices, and assume that total demand for labor is the same, assuming spending were just diverted to other businesses, it still doesn't solve the problem. It would be a diversion of spending from those businesses/industries that were hiring low-skilled workers to those businesses/industries that don't. The latter will have no new incentive to hire lower skilled workers than they were before. So we should still have the same expectation: that the higher minimum wage increases unemployment among the low skilled.
As I've posted before, whether minimum wage does or doesn't kill jobs is something that has been heavily studied, and here is a graph from a meta-analysis (that summed up other studies):
Each dot on that graph represents a scientific study done on the subject, with the more accurate studies higher up the y-axis, and job losses / gains observed on the x-axis. It turns out the distribution is centered around zero change in the job market, with all the most accurate studies giving that result.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostZero change? Awesome! Then let's hike the minimum wage to $1000 per hour. Why not a million? After all they've scientifically shown that it would cause, on average, no net job loss, right?
I am amused though that you commit the usual libertarian error of "I see your scientific evidence and raise you a BS thought experiment, so QED!" Dude the whole reason science is superior to philosophy in the first place is because empirical evidence is a better kind of evidence than wacky thought experiments are."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View PostWhy not make the minimum wage $15 in a place like California for 5 years and measure the impact?
If it turns out to be a problem then roll it back.
I think we should run some tests before implementing a FEDERAL minimum wage - which seems to me to suffer from several inherent problems, not the least of which is that $10 in Alabama is much closer to a living wage (Rent: $600 per month) vs. California (Rent: $1700 per month).
More simply: minimum wage = minimum spending power, and raising the minimum wage doesn't change that.Last edited by Mountain Man; 04-21-2017, 05:19 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Dimbulb View PostInflation. Obviously raising the minimum wage to near or above the median wage is just going to cause inflationary processes to trigger as wages and prices move towards new price points and settle there.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostInflation. Obviously raising the minimum wage to near or above the median wage is just going to cause inflationary processes to trigger as wages and prices move towards new price points and settle there.
Now if we suppose that it did just cause a general price inflation, wouldn't that defeat the supposed benefits of the minimum wage? And why wouldn't inflation happen with smaller minimums?
Now I do think minimum wage could result in inflation, but not with things remaining about the same: demand for labor would fall, production in general would fall, and the same quantity of money would be chasing fewer goods, thus general price inflation.
I am amused though that you commit the usual libertarian error of "I see your scientific evidence and raise you a BS thought experiment, so QED!" Dude the whole reason science is superior to philosophy in the first place is because empirical evidence is a better kind of evidence than wacky thought experiments are.Last edited by Joel; 04-21-2017, 08:41 PM.
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As an aside, I've only been to the US about 3 times, and in each case I've greatly resented the tipping system you have over there. We have tips too- in a restaurant if the food & service is good you leave a tip- if it's pants you don't. And you're not looked down upon if you don't (and I'd argue the toss with anyone who worked there who claimed otherwise).
However, in the US it seems it's down to me to subsidise the waiters low pay? It's not like the food is particularly cheap, and the tips can get astronomical (another point of confusion for those not used to it- it's not always explicitly stated how much extra you have to pay for no real reason).
I was shown a room in a hotel for some reason (I had the room number, it's not like I couldn't find it) and the chap stood at the door waiting for a tip. Didn't realise at the time that's what he was after so I thanked him & closed the door. After that the service I received was pants and it wasn't until someone explained it to me that I realised what their problem was. As far as I could tell he was simply doing his job- essentially the reason he was employed there to begin with, so not sure why I had to give him more money for fulfilling his purpose.
Dunno, it's just confusing unless you're used to it I guess.
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I was born and raised in America, and even I don't entirely understand or agree with our tipping tradition. This is one of the few things I think Europe has gotten right.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by EvoUK View PostAs an aside, I've only been to the US about 3 times, and in each case I've greatly resented the tipping system you have over there. We have tips too- in a restaurant if the food & service is good you leave a tip- if it's pants you don't. And you're not looked down upon if you don't (and I'd argue the toss with anyone who worked there who claimed otherwise).
However, in the US it seems it's down to me to subsidise the waiters low pay? It's not like the food is particularly cheap, and the tips can get astronomical (another point of confusion for those not used to it- it's not always explicitly stated how much extra you have to pay for no real reason).
I was shown a room in a hotel for some reason (I had the room number, it's not like I couldn't find it) and the chap stood at the door waiting for a tip. Didn't realise at the time that's what he was after so I thanked him & closed the door. After that the service I received was pants and it wasn't until someone explained it to me that I realised what their problem was. As far as I could tell he was simply doing his job- essentially the reason he was employed there to begin with, so not sure why I had to give him more money for fulfilling his purpose.
Dunno, it's just confusing unless you're used to it I guess.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus ... and yes, Virginia, higher wages kill jobs.
Why, as at March this year, Australia has a 5.9% unemployment rate - and America has only 5%. (Of course, both governments are massaging the figures, and I don't know which one is doing so more successfully.)I'm not here anymore.
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