Vegetarianism/Veganism - Why or Why Not?

[Cybelle Hawke]

Unfortunately, even heavy fines don't work. Look at what the cigarette industry did in reaction to their lawsuit losses. They raised the price of their product by 100-150%. Companies pass on costs to the consumers who buy their product, and in the case of cigarettes, even increase their profits in the process. The only thing they understand is shutting down a plant until discrepancies are cleared up.

I quite agree.

Reading back my post, I realized that I had not worked out my thoughts accurately. What I really meant to say was that an increase of the frequency of inspection, together with a heavy fining, will make investments on pro-animal-conscient-production discussable in the Executive Suite.

A corporation which is only inspected once a year, or even worse, when a two/three year licence needs to be renewed, can easily deceive itsself (or dismiss questions about it) by claiming that it functions fully according to legislation and can even attain upgrading in Quality Assurance labels for marketing puposes in its specific field ( ISO for instance)

It is the public who is fooled with the idea that if the government has made the regulations, the meat they are buying is produced according to it. Hygienically there is no doubt all are within legislation! Yet pro-decent-animal-lifely....... it is not as certain as these corporations profile themselves, particulary when the animals are coming from many different farms.

Allow me to state something entirely different but still on this issue. Very recently the Brazilian government has signed a "small" trial contract with China for 200.000 tons (!) of swine meat. If Brazil meets up with the expectations, than China will continue to order on a regular basis (and not only swine meat if I understand it well). Great. Good. Congratulations. If Brazil would not have taken the opportunity, some other country would have.

Now, I do not mean to whine about the fact that today´s domestic swine price is absurd and a simple spare rib becomes a collector´s item..... after all, we can all eat chicken, cow and fish. But I would like to know who would care about the conditions under which the swine for this particular order will be "processed" and who would be interested in inspecting and fining such a wonderful opportunity to expand the exportmarket with such an attractive consumer as China?

If the answer to this question would be: another flipped animal lover fanatic.... allow me to say that there is something wrong with our parameters of success.

[gharfish]

I'll take your portions then.

I wonder why you said that to him.


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[Bill the Cat]

I wonder why you said that to him.


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Waste not, want not.

[gharfish]

But wouldn't his portion he never ordered not be your's to get from him ? And how could what he does not buy be wasted? He said he intentionally cuts back and so becomes less the 'demanding' consumer (supply meets demand) because of factory farming. If I read him right he has ethical concerns about the effects on the animals involved and therefore minimizes his involvement. He does not like it and has real problems supporting it.

It is the way we get 99% (literally the number) of our meat / them.


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[shunyadragon]

Are there good reasons to be vegetarian (not eat meat) or vegan (not eat any animal products at all, including dairy, eggs, etc)? Are there good reasons against being either one? You may invoke reasons that are moral, philosophical, religious, political, or dietary.

There are good dietary arguments against vegan, because basically it fails to provide a good nutritional balance without considerable expense and effort. Nutrients like B12 are totally lacking in the usual vegan diet. Naturally humans are omnivores, and they evolved to take advantage of many different forms of nutrition in many different climates and environments. It is only our high tech world that allows people to indulge in veganism. It would be an individual choice to do so with a lot of dietary red flags to deal with.

I view the various forms of vegetarian diets in practical terms. I am mostly vegetarian. The many forms of these diets can be practical and healthy for most people, unless you live in climatic extremes like the Arctic North. Complete and healthy diets can be achieved without eating meat or eating very little meat, or animal products, and much healthier.

The best example I can cite is China. Up until recently China's was mostly non-meat, non-dairy, with the consumption of only small amounts of meat, because of low average income and large population. There levels of diabeties and obesity was low, but since China prospered in the last 40 years, and not only did the amount of meat increase in their diet, but dairy products also were introduced in large amounts. A more western diet became popular. The result rates of diabeties and obesity sky rocketed, particularly in children. to levels equivalent to the west..

The environmental and energy transfer equivalents are important issues in the modern world that support the need for vegetarian diets, or diets with far less meat with the increase in population..

[gharfish]

Ramen noodles.


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[Soyeong]

There are good dietary arguments against vegan, because basically it fails to provide a good nutritional balance without considerable expense and effort. Nutrients like B12 are totally lacking in the usual vegan diet. Naturally humans are omnivores, and they evolved to take advantage of many different forms of nutrition in many different climates and environments. It is only our high tech world that allows people to indulge in veganism. It would be an individual choice to do so with a lot of dietary red flags to deal with.

Is there anything besides B12? Because that can easily be supplemented.

[Soyeong]

In my opinion human is made to eat both the foods "veges and meat"
we can not fulfill out protein need without eating meat and is much essential to maintain a good health.
My there would be much controversy regarding my opinion.

On the contrary, there are other foods besides meat that contain protein, so there's particular reason why we need to get any protein from meat.

[princesa]

....there are other foods besides meat that contain protein, so there's particular reason why we need to get any protein from meat.

and protein from plant based foods don't include fat calories, toxic residues, or an overabundance of protein which stresses the kidneys. beans, peas, lentils, nuts, seeds, whole grains are all sources of protein for the vegan...include eggs, milk, yogurt for the vegetarian. and let's not forget the yummiest of them all, mouth watering ALGAE. Spirulina has great protein.

[shunyadragon]

Is there anything besides B12? Because that can easily be supplemented.

Most B12 is from animal sources, some from microorganisms, but strictly this would not meet vegan criteria. Choline is a potential problem also, because the content of choline in vegan sources may be low, lentils is the best source. Iodine requires a suppliment.

These issues can be addressed, but present research indicates that the problems of Vegan diets in children makes it difficult to follow as a family diet.

[Catholicity]

Interestingly enough, I've followed Vegan and Vegetarian Eating plans. B12 can be found in vegan foods, but often has to be acheived fomr "fortified sources" However, it is found in certain amounts in Spirulina, Brewer's Yeast, and other Algaes. Companies frequently now make Fortified Rice, Soy, and Almond Milks and veggie "cheeses" or fortified tofu that has B12 in it. Also, Vegemite has B12, and Miso has trace amounts. For Vegetarians wo consume some animal products, eggs, cheese and of you eat it sea food are great sources of B12.

[shunyadragon]

Interestingly enough, I've followed Vegan and Vegetarian Eating plans. B12 can be found in vegan foods, but often has to be acheived fomr "fortified sources" However, it is found in certain amounts in Spirulina, Brewer's Yeast, and other Algaes. Companies frequently now make Fortified Rice, Soy, and Almond Milks and veggie "cheeses" or fortified tofu that has B12 in it. Also, Vegemite has B12, and Miso has trace amounts. For Vegetarians wo consume some animal products, eggs, cheese and of you eat it sea food are great sources of B12.

I do endorse vegetarian diets that greatly decrease the intake of animal products. I am presently a vegetarian that eats small amounts of eggs and cheese. It does not take much to meet basic B12 and choline requirements. I do so for ethical, environmental and health reasons.