End of the age in Matt. 24:3

[Bill the Cat]

The word, "stand" is a better term refering to Daniel's evacuation from SHEOL, THE GRAVE, to heaven, at the end of THAT AGE. Dan. 12:1 also says, that at that time Michael shall STAND up, the great prince who protects your people. At that point Michael, the warrior angel that fought the prince of Persia in chapter 10 also ascended to a heavenly warfare, casting satan down from before the throne of God. this also was after Christ's ascension to God's throne, in Rev. 12:5.

Let's see what some commentaries say...

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

With this ותָנוּחַ simply connects itself: and thou shalt rest, namely, in the grave, and rise again. תַּעֲמוֹד = תָּקוּם, to rise up, sc. from the rest of the grave, thus to rise again. לְגוֹרָלְךָ, in thy lot. גּוֹרָל, lot, of the inheritance divided to the Israelites by lot, referred to the inheritance of the saints in light (Col_1:12), which shall be possessed by the righteous after the resurrection from the dead, in the heavenly Jerusalem. הַיָמִים לְקֵץ, to = at, the end of the days, i.e., not = הַיָמִים אַחֲרִית, in the Messianic time, but in the last days, when, after the judgment of the world, the kingdom of glory shall appear. Well shall it be for us if in the end of our days we too are able to depart hence with such consolation of hope!

A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

Dan 12:13
rest — in the grave (Job_3:17; Isa_57:2). He, like his people Israel, was to wait patiently and confidently for the blessing till God’s time. He “received not the promise,” but had to wait until the Christian elect saints should be brought in, at the first resurrection, that he and the older Old Testament saints “without us should not be made perfect” (Heb_11:40).

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

Our rest in the grave will be but till the end of the days; and then the peaceful rest will be happily disturbed by a joyful resurrection. Job foresaw this when he said of the dead, Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep, implying that then they shall, Job_14:12. [5.] We must every one of us stand in our lot at the end of the days. In the judgment of the great day we must have our allotment according to what we were, and what we did, in the body, either, Come, you blessed or, Go, you cursed; and we must stand for ever in that lot.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

for thou shalt rest; from all toil and labour, from all sin and sorrow; his body in the grave, his soul in the bosom of Christ: and stand in thy lot at the end of the days; signifying that he should rise again from the dead, have his part in the first resurrection, his share of the glory of the Millennium state, and his portion in the heavenly inheritance of the saints; the antitype of Canaan, which was divided by lot to the children of Israel: and, in the faith and hope of this, it became him to be contented and satisfied; believing the accomplishment of all that had been shown him, and looking for the blessedness which was promised him. Agreeable to which is the paraphrase of Jacchiades;

"but thou, O Daniel, go to the end of thy life in this world; and, after thou art dead, rest in the rest of paradise; and at the end of days thou shall stand and live in the resurrection of the dead, and shall enjoy thy good lot in the world to come''.

1599 Geneva Bible Translation Notes

Dan 12:13 But go (o) thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

(o) The angel warns the Prophet patiently to wait, until the time appointed comes, signifying that he should depart this life, and rise again with the elect, when God had sufficiently humbled and purged his Church.

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

Dan 12:13 But go thou - I have revealed to thee these things, that thou and thy people, might be prepared for sufferings, and yet not without hope of a glorious deliverance. For thou shalt rest - In which hope thou shalt die, and rest from trouble, 'till the resurrection of the just. It ought to be the great concern of every one of us, to secure a happy lot in the end of the days, and then we may well be content with our present lot, welcoming the will of God.

Snipped the rest of your comments as John handled them quite skillfully.

[TyRockwell]

Ty, Ty, Ty...

"SHEOL" is English for Hebrew ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl).
"HADES" is English for Greek ᾅδης (ha̧dēs).
Hebrew ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl, "SHEOL") = Greek ᾅδης (ha̧dēs, "HADES").

In the the Old Testament, where "SHEOL" occurs in English versions to render Hebrew ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl), Greek ᾅδης (ha̧dēs, "HADES") is the rendering in the LXX.

When an OT text using the word ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl, "SHEOL") is quoted in the Greek New Testament, the rendering of Hebrew ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl, "SHEOL") is Greek ᾅδης (ha̧dēs, "HADES"); however, sometimes the Hebrew may be transliterated using Greek letters for the Hebrew word, rather than translated using the Greek word.

The Greek word ᾅδης (ha̧dēs, "HADES") is also used to render other Hebrew words in the OT, such as for ‏דּוּמה, the angel of death, and ‏מָוֶת, death; however, the usage of ᾅδης (ha̧dēs, "HADES") is chiefly for ‏שְׁאוֹל (šᵉʾôl, "SHEOL").

Whatever names you call them by, there were still two places, separated by a great gulf. Lazarus, the beggar, was in comfort and rest, the rich man in torment.

In Revelation's fifth seal, those souls "under the altar," prior to Christ's sacrifice, and were crying out, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" They were under the blood of bulls and goats. They were "in the grave" (but not in torment) and were not able to enter heaven yet, as their sins were only covered, not done away with, or taken away, with the blood of Jesus. Now that Christ's life has fulfilled all righteousness, and he took upon himself the judgment of the sin of the whole world, a believer is no longer waiting "under the blood of bulls and goats" waiting to go to heaven. A believer goes to heaven immediately, at death.

[TyRockwell]

Let's see what some commentaries say...

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament

With this ותָנוּחַ simply connects itself: and thou shalt rest, namely, in the grave, and rise again. תַּעֲמוֹד = תָּקוּם, to rise up, sc. from the rest of the grave, thus to rise again. לְגוֹרָלְךָ, in thy lot. גּוֹרָל, lot, of the inheritance divided to the Israelites by lot, referred to the inheritance of the saints in light (Col_1:12), which shall be possessed by the righteous after the resurrection from the dead, in the heavenly Jerusalem. הַיָמִים לְקֵץ, to = at, the end of the days, i.e., not = הַיָמִים אַחֲרִית, in the Messianic time, but in the last days, when, after the judgment of the world, the kingdom of glory shall appear. Well shall it be for us if in the end of our days we too are able to depart hence with such consolation of hope!

A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown

Dan 12:13
rest — in the grave (Job_3:17; Isa_57:2). He, like his people Israel, was to wait patiently and confidently for the blessing till God’s time. He “received not the promise,” but had to wait until the Christian elect saints should be brought in, at the first resurrection, that he and the older Old Testament saints “without us should not be made perfect” (Heb_11:40).

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

Our rest in the grave will be but till the end of the days; and then the peaceful rest will be happily disturbed by a joyful resurrection. Job foresaw this when he said of the dead, Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep, implying that then they shall, Job_14:12. [5.] We must every one of us stand in our lot at the end of the days. In the judgment of the great day we must have our allotment according to what we were, and what we did, in the body, either, Come, you blessed or, Go, you cursed; and we must stand for ever in that lot.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

for thou shalt rest; from all toil and labour, from all sin and sorrow; his body in the grave, his soul in the bosom of Christ: and stand in thy lot at the end of the days; signifying that he should rise again from the dead, have his part in the first resurrection, his share of the glory of the Millennium state, and his portion in the heavenly inheritance of the saints; the antitype of Canaan, which was divided by lot to the children of Israel: and, in the faith and hope of this, it became him to be contented and satisfied; believing the accomplishment of all that had been shown him, and looking for the blessedness which was promised him. Agreeable to which is the paraphrase of Jacchiades;

"but thou, O Daniel, go to the end of thy life in this world; and, after thou art dead, rest in the rest of paradise; and at the end of days thou shall stand and live in the resurrection of the dead, and shall enjoy thy good lot in the world to come''.

1599 Geneva Bible Translation Notes

Dan 12:13 But go (o) thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

(o) The angel warns the Prophet patiently to wait, until the time appointed comes, signifying that he should depart this life, and rise again with the elect, when God had sufficiently humbled and purged his Church.

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

Dan 12:13 But go thou - I have revealed to thee these things, that thou and thy people, might be prepared for sufferings, and yet not without hope of a glorious deliverance. For thou shalt rest - In which hope thou shalt die, and rest from trouble, 'till the resurrection of the just. It ought to be the great concern of every one of us, to secure a happy lot in the end of the days, and then we may well be content with our present lot, welcoming the will of God.

Snipped the rest of your comments as John handled them quite skillfully.

It doesn't matter what commentaries or 'experts' say. Too many of them ADD to the word of God, as THESE DO, that you quoted. Much more revelation is available, now, with better translations than the commenters had as a foundation. Most commentaries are colored by the preconceptions of tradition and denomination that the writer brings with his interpretation. They are in fact, OPINIONS. What really matters, is what the Word of God says.

No, John did not address the fact that there were TWO places, separated by a gulf. He did not deal with the fact that the OT departed believer was in comfort in a separate place than the place of torment, in flames.

Neither did he address the NT revelation that Jesus "led captivity captive" or as the more accurate NIV renders, "led captivity in his train" when he ascended into heaven.

In addition, you failed to acknowledge that I blew up you interpretation of "stand" as adressed to Daniel, by showing it is the SAME WORD as the one used of Michael's RISE to a higher, heavenly place of warfare. The next time we see Michael is after Jesus ascension to heaven, and Michael and his armies were fighting satan and his armies, in heaven, not only on earth, as was seen in Daniel 10, where Michael fought the principality of Persia, in order to get the messenger angel through to Daniel, who had been sent three weeks earlier, but had been withheld from reaching Daniel.

[Bill the Cat]

It doesn't matter what commentaries or 'experts' say. Too many of them ADD to the word of God, as THESE DO, that you quoted. Much more revelation is available, now, with better translations than the commenters had as a foundation. Most commentaries are colored by the preconceptions of tradition and denomination that the writer brings with his interpretation. They are in fact, OPINIONS. What really matters, is what the Word of God says.

You got pwnd, and you think you are smarter and more "spiritual" than these great men of God. You are a true narcicist.

No, John did not address the fact that there were TWO places, separated by a gulf. He did not deal with the fact that the OT departed believer was in comfort in a separate place than the place of torment, in flames.

You are diverting the discussionfrom Daniel's resurrection promise.

Neither did he address the NT revelation that Jesus "led captivity captive" or as the more accurate NIV renders, "led captivity in his train" when he ascended into heaven.

But that was NOT their reward! Daniel's PORTION comes at his resurrection when Jesus returns.

In addition, you failed to acknowledge that I blew up you interpretation of "stand" as adressed to Daniel, by showing it is the SAME WORD as the one used of Michael's RISE to a higher, heavenly place of warfare.

You did no such thing!! Daniel 1 and 2 go together.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is the resurrection of the just.

The next time we see Michael is after Jesus ascension to heaven, and Michael and his armies were fighting satan and his armies, in heaven, not only on earth, as was seen in Daniel 10, where Michael fought the principality of Persia, in order to get the messenger angel through to Daniel, who had been sent three weeks earlier, but had been withheld from reaching Daniel.

So what? Daniel 2 is quite clear on when Michael will "stand", and it is just before the resurrection of the just. The "end of the age" terminates with the resurrection of the just, or the "portion" of Daniel.

[John Reece]

Whatever names you call them by, there were still two places, separated by a great gulf. Lazarus, the beggar, was in comfort and rest, the rich man in torment.

I did not "call" them by any name, Ty; I simply addressed your erroneous assertion the "Sheol" and "Hades" are two different places.

From Luke 9:51-24:53, page 1369 (BECNT; Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996) by Darrell Bock:

The rich man is in Hades, the place in the OT (‏שְׁאוֹל, šᵉʾôl, Sheol) and in Judaism where the dead were gathered (Ps. 16:10; 86:13). The righteous (2 Macc. 6:23; 1 Enoch 102:4-5) and unrighteous (Ps. Sol. 14:6, 9-10; 15:10) both reside there, though they are separated from each other (1 Enoch 22).

From Luke 10-24, page 855 (The Anchor Bible; New York: Doubleday, 1985), by Joseph A. Fitzmyer:

In postexilic Judaism šᵉʾôl [‏שְׁאוֹל, Sheol] underwent a development with the emergence of the ideas of resurrection (see Dan 12:2) and of retribution for the conduct of earthly life. It became a place divided into separate locales, one for the upright, and three for sinners. This distinction is clearly found in 1 Enoch 22:3-13. Cf. 4QEn^e 1 ccii 1-8; 4QEn^e 1 xi 1-3 (known in the Greek version as hoi topoi hoi koiloi, "the hollow places"); also 1 Enoch 63:10; 99:11; cf. 2 Esdr. 7:16; Josephus, Ant. 18. 1,3 § 14 (...). This is partly reflected in Luke 16:22-16.

[Theolog]

Are full preterists still banned in these discusions???

[Bill the Cat]

Are full preterists still banned in these discusions???

Yes

[seanD]

It's none of my business, but just out of curiosity, why would full preterism be any less heretical than dispensationalism? Wouldn't they both be contrary to partial preterism, just on the opposite sides of the spectrum?

[Bill the Cat]

It's none of my business, but just out of curiosity, why would full preterism be any less heretical than dispensationalism? Wouldn't they both be contrary to partial preterism, just on the opposite sides of the spectrum?

No. Full Preterism denies the future bodily resurrection. Dispensationalism does not deny any core essential of the faith.

[TyRockwell]

You got pwnd, and you think you are smarter and more "spiritual" than these great men of God. You are a true narcicist.

There is nothing selfish or 'self-centered' about pointing out that your spiritual, great men of God are fallible. Their coments are their opinions are not equal to scripture. Jesus pointed out the increasing nature of Holy Spirit revelation and teaching over time. He said, "I have many more things to tell you, but you are not able to bear them, now. But when he, the Spirit of truth has come, he will guide you into all truth."

You are diverting the discussion from Daniel's resurrection promise.

No, I am making the point that the resurrection of Jesus, with his taking captives in his train was the end of an age. It was the end of the Old Covenant age. God foretold it through Jeremiah. "The time is coming when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

That new covenant is what Jesus called "a New Testament in my blood" at the Last Supper.

But that was NOT their reward! Daniel's PORTION comes at his resurrection when Jesus returns.

Again, the issue is not only about when Daniel would receive his reward, but when he would rise. They are two different times, each at an end of an age. Look at Dan.12:1-3, because you have missed it, looking only at verse 13. It says,

"But at that time your people, everyone whose name is found written in the book, will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake; some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."

The phrase "will be delivered" refers to salvation, being saved, at that time, of Jesus' ascension, being loosed from captivity, awakened from the dust of the earth, to eternal life. They are those who were wise, or imparted wisdom. They now "shine like the brightness of the heavens." The "those who lead many to righteousness, [are] like the stars forever and ever" are the living New Covenant believers, whom, as Paul says of us, "you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the Word of life." Philippians 2:15

You did no such thing!! Daniel 1 and 2 go together.

OF COURSE, they do! Only you, and others with the wrong interpretation, think the great tribulation didn't begin soon after Jesus' ascension to heaven, and at the same time Michael rose to heavenly warfare, and the captives were loosed to rise with Jesus, only NOT with their physical bodies, which are still in "the dust of the earth."

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is the resurrection of the just.

It was the rising from captivity, from sleeping in the dust of the earth, of the Old Covenant believers, with Jesus, to heaven.

So what? Daniel 2 is quite clear on when Michael will "stand", and it is just before the resurrection of the just. The "end of the age" terminates with the resurrection of the just, or the "portion" of Daniel.

As I said above, "stand" means "rise." The NIV uses the word, "rise" there, as well as in verse 13. It was a rise to eternal life with Jesus in heaven.

[TyRockwell]

I did not "call" them by any name, Ty; I simply addressed your erroneous assertion the "Sheol" and "Hades" are two different places.

From Luke 9:51-24:53, page 1369 (BECNT; Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996) by Darrell Bock:

The rich man is in Hades, the place in the OT (‏שְׁאוֹל, šᵉʾôl, Sheol) and in Judaism where the dead were gathered (Ps. 16:10; 86:13). The righteous (2 Macc. 6:23; 1 Enoch 102:4-5) and unrighteous (Ps. Sol. 14:6, 9-10; 15:10) both reside there, though they are separated from each other (1 Enoch 22).

From Luke 10-24, page 855 (The Anchor Bible; New York: Doubleday, 1985), by Joseph A. Fitzmyer:

In postexilic Judaism šᵉʾôl [‏שְׁאוֹל, Sheol] underwent a development with the emergence of the ideas of resurrection (see Dan 12:2) and of retribution for the conduct of earthly life. It became a place divided into separate locales, one for the upright, and three for sinners. This distinction is clearly found in 1 Enoch 22:3-13. Cf. 4QEn^e 1 ccii 1-8; 4QEn^e 1 xi 1-3 (known in the Greek version as hoi topoi hoi koiloi, "the hollow places"); also 1 Enoch 63:10; 99:11; cf. 2 Esdr. 7:16; Josephus, Ant. 18. 1,3 § 14 (...). This is partly reflected in Luke 16:22-16.

It is your last paragraph that explains what I mean, and what Jesus meant by the story of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. The book of Daniel is the last book in the Hebrew Bible, and introduced the concept of two places. The "grave," is in "the dust of the earth." For Old Covenant believers, it was also the bosom of Abraham, or Paradise. Daniel helped elaborate on these things, as also the Revelation of Jesus Christ elaborates on the whole word of God, and adds details to New Testament revelation.

[Bill the Cat]

There is nothing selfish or 'self-centered' about pointing out that your spiritual, great men of God are fallible.

As are you.

Their coments are their opinions are not equal to scripture.

So are yours. And your comments are out of line with scripture.

Jesus pointed out the increasing nature of Holy Spirit revelation and teaching over time. He said, "I have many more things to tell you, but you are not able to bear them, now. But when he, the Spirit of truth has come, he will guide you into all truth."

He said this to the Apostles, not you.

No, I am making the point that the resurrection of Jesus, with his taking captives in his train was the end of an age. It was the end of the Old Covenant age. God foretold it through Jeremiah. "The time is coming when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

That new covenant is what Jesus called "a New Testament in my blood" at the Last Supper.

Sorry, but this is equivocating the change in covenant to the "end of the age" that Michael told Daniel that he would rise "from the dust of the earth", which is a Hebrew idiom for raising from the dead.

Again, the issue is not only about when Daniel would receive his reward, but when he would rise. They are two different times, each at an end of an age. Look at Dan.12:1-3, because you have missed it, looking only at verse 13. It says,

"But at that time your people, everyone whose name is found written in the book, will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake; some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever."




The phrase "will be delivered" refers to salvation, being saved, at that time, of Jesus' ascension, being loosed from captivity, awakened from the dust of the earth, to eternal life. They are those who were wise, or imparted wisdom. They now "shine like the brightness of the heavens." The "those who lead many to righteousness, [are] like the stars forever and ever" are the living New Covenant believers, whom, as Paul says of us, "you shine like stars in the universe as you hold out the Word of life." Philippians 2:15

It is YOU who is missing the obvious. This "raising" is said to happen to both righteous and wicked. Those who are raised to everlasting contempt are NOT believers.

OF COURSE, they do!

And Vs. 2 is clear that some of those who are "raised" will be raised to everlasting contempt. This is the BODILY RESURRECTION, Ty.

Only you, and others with the wrong interpretation, think the great tribulation didn't begin soon after Jesus' ascension to heaven, and at the same time Michael rose to heavenly warfare, and the captives were loosed to rise with Jesus, only NOT with their physical bodies, which are still in "the dust of the earth."

Then you have an issue with the early church and the Didache.

Didache 16:4
For as lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate one another and shall persecute and betray. And then the world-deceiver shall appear as a son of God; and shall work signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unholy things, which have never been since the world began.

Didache 16:5
Then all created mankind shall come to the fire of testing, and many shall be offended and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved by the Curse Himself.

Didache 16:6
And then shall the signs of the truth appear; first a sign of a rift in the heaven, then a sign of a voice of a trumpet, and thirdly a resurrection of the dead;

The "Tribulation" will happen when the world deceiver appears.

It was the rising from captivity, from sleeping in the dust of the earth, of the Old Covenant believers, with Jesus, to heaven.

No, Ty. That's not what Daniel said. He said that:

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, you are telling us that this "rising from captivity" was the Old Covenant believers rising with Jesus... so, which of those believers rose to shame and everlasting contempt?

As I said above, "stand" means "rise." The NIV uses the word, "rise" there, as well as in verse 13. It was a rise to eternal life with Jesus in heaven.

No. It was an awakening from sleep in the dust of the earth. It is the resurrection of the body and the judgement thereafter, or else some of those who "rose to eternal life with Jesus in heaven" were there with Jesus in heaven but also in shame and everlasting contempt...

[eschaton]

It is your last paragraph that explains what I mean, and what Jesus meant by the story of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus. The book of Daniel is the last book in the Hebrew Bible, and introduced the concept of two places. The "grave," is in "the dust of the earth." For Old Covenant believers, it was also the bosom of Abraham, or Paradise. Daniel helped elaborate on these things, as also the Revelation of Jesus Christ elaborates on the whole word of God, and adds details to New Testament revelation.

I'm sure I'm going to regret asking this, but how is Daniel the last book in the Hebrew Bible?

[John Reece]

I'm sure I'm going to regret asking this, but how is Daniel the last book in the Hebrew Bible?

From THE BOOK OF DANIEL: PART I : A THEOLOGICAL- POLITICAL TRACTATE ADDRESSED TO
JUDEAN HASIDIM UNDER SELEUCID-GREEK RULE, by NATHAN MOSKOWITZ (see here for source of quote below):

The Book of Daniel is chronologically the last composition to be included
in the Hebrew Bible despite being editorially placed in front of the Books of
Ezra and Nehemiah.

[eschaton]

Does the opinion of one scholar make it a fact? Are you saying that is the opinion of all scholars? I tried the link but it didn't work for me for some reason.