Do Jews and Christians Worship the Same God?

[ddlewis86]

Hi. I am new to the message board and I hope I don't start off as too controversial. I found this article and i have been looking for Scriptural backup to refute the author's claim if possible. I appreciate any responses to this thread. Thank you all in advance.

Do Jews and Christians Worship the Same God?

by Todd Wilken

No. Jews and Christians do not worship the God.

The Old Testament people of God did indeed worship the same God Christians worship today. The vast majority of them however, turned away from the true God, though a remnant always remained (Luke 2:25).

By the time of Jesus’ appearing, His own people were practicing Judaism (a religion formed as much by the Talmud as by the Old Testament), not the true faith of the Old Testament. Jesus says to those Jews (John 8:36-47):

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Jesus says, No one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6). There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God.

The problem with the Jews was NOT that they "merely" rejected Jesus while retaining the worship of the true God (which is impossible). The problem is that they rejected Jesus precisely BECAUSE they reject the true faith of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus says to them, If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me (John 5:46).

There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. This is not hyperbole, this is cold, hard Biblical fact.

With respect to Jesus, modern day Jews are little different than their New Testament counterparts. They reject him. However, as was also the case in the New Testament, when a Jew is brought to faith in Jesus, he is returned to the faith of the Old (and New) Testament and to worship of the true God.

Paul writes (2 Corinthians 3:14-16):

Their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Paul knows this and writes (Romans 9:3-8):

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jews and Christians do no worship the same God. This is precisely why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have continued to proclaim the true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit to both Jew and Gentile. This is why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have proclaimed Jesus as the only mediator between God and man, the only name given among me by which we must be saved and the One Who said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one some to the Father except through me."

The Rev. Todd Wilken is the Host of Issues, Etc.

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/ar.../jewschrst.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Fideist345]

Today @ 01:02 AM post located here
ddlewis86:

Hi. I am new to the message board and I hope I don't start off as too controversial. I found this article and i have been looking for Scriptural backup to refute the author's claim if possible. I appreciate any responses to this thread. Thank you all in advance.

Hi yourself.

“ Do Jews and Christians Worship the Same God? by Todd Wilken ”



No. Jews and Christians do not worship the God.

The Old Testament people of God did indeed worship the same God Christians worship today. The vast majority of them however, turned away from the true God, though a remnant always remained (Luke 2:25).

This is a very strange reading of:

"25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; this man was righteous and devout, looking forward to the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit rested on him. "

First off, to be considered righteous, Simeon would have to be obeying all of the Law that pertained to him. Jewish Law, that is. Secondly, the phrase: 'consolation of Israel' has to do with rabbinical exegesis of 2 Kings 2:11 (Elisha, Elijah). The Holy Spirit reference would be God working to save his people.

By the time of Jesus’ appearing, His own people were practicing Judaism (a religion formed as much by the Talmud as by the Old Testament), not the true faith of the Old Testament. Jesus says to those Jews (John 8:36-47):

This is just pure unmitigated nonsense. Talmud is commentary on Mishna and dates to hundreds of years after the time of Jesus.

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Another fundamentalist rips verses out of context. Who is the Father that Jesus refers to all throughout? Yahweh. Same God. End of discussion.

Jesus says, No one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6). There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God.

This soteriological claim in John is the curse of all fundamentalists. It totally baffles them because they try and read it literally while simultaneously reading into the text what they already assume they know: Jesus is God.

The problem with the Jews was NOT that they "merely" rejected Jesus while retaining the worship of the true God (which is impossible). The problem is that they rejected Jesus precisely BECAUSE they reject the true faith of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Eh? Jesus was not proclaimed to be God until the council of Nicea. Any perceived claim to the contrary is just that: perceived. And it is a claim made by humans who argued the nature of Christ for two hundred years before Constantine forced a final confrontation. And just prior to Nicea, the vast majority of Christianity agreed that Jesus was a created being. Yet, Athanasius’ theology prevailed and in what some said was a miraculous event, the council voted Jesus in as God. Thus was born religious bigotry. Suddenly people who had been Christians were heretics. They were forced to recant or face the possibility of execution. Romans did not fool around. And from that time on, the Roman backed Christian orthodoxy did not either.

Jesus says to them, If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me (John 5:46).

No, the writer of John has assumed that Moses wrote Tanach and that Tanach predicts the coming of Jesus. That is a claim that has been debated ad nauseam. And the only reason fundamentalist Christians still hang on to the idea is that they have made the claim a building block of their exclusive religion.

There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. This is not hyperbole, this is cold, hard Biblical fact.

No, this is cold, hard fundamentalist Christian propaganda.

With respect to Jesus, modern day Jews are little different than their New Testament counterparts. They reject him. However, as was also the case in the New Testament, when a Jew is brought to faith in Jesus, he is returned to the faith of the Old (and New) Testament and to worship of the true God.

As the Messiah, they reject Jesus. Their criteria for a Messiah is far different from what Jesus claimed. Here are the criteria Jews look for:

1] Biological descendant of David--Jeremiah 23:5 (See also Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 30: 7-10; Jeremiah 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5)

note: must also be a descendant of Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:9), but can not be a descendant of Jeconiah (Jeremiah 22:30).

2] Preceded by Elijah--Malachi 3:23-24

3] World Peace--Isaiah 2:4;Ezekiel 39: 9

4] Universal Knowledge of God--Isaiah 11: 9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:23; Zechariah 14: 9; Zechariah 14:16

5] Building of the Third Temple--Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

6] Death Will Cease--Isaiah 25:8

7] Resurrection of the Dead--Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; Ezekiel 37:12-13

8] Ingathering of Israel--Isaiah 43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

9] The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially--Isaiah 60:5; Isaiah 60:10-12; Isaiah 61:6

10] Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation--Isaiah 51:11

11] The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance--Zechariah 8:23

12] All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed--Ezekiel 39: 9

13] The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried--Ezekiel 39:12

14] The Egyptian River Will Run Dry--Isaiah 11:15

15] Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel--Ezekiel 47:12

16] Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance--Ezekiel 47:13-14

17] All Warfare Will Cease--Isaiah 2:4

Paul writes (2 Corinthians 3:14-16):

Their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Their minds were not hardened. Their expectations were not fulfilled.

Paul knows this and writes (Romans 9:3-8):

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jews and Christians do no worship the same God. This is precisely why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have continued to proclaim the true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit to both Jew and Gentile. This is why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have proclaimed Jesus as the only mediator between God and man, the only name given among me by which we must be saved and the One Who said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one some to the Father except through me."

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. The fundamentalist Christian interpretation of how things are, is how things are. And the proof of this mind-boggling claim is? The fundamentalist interpretation of scripture. Both Tanach and the NT. Specious reasoning. Myopic exegesis. Rotten fruit.

The Rev. Todd Wilken is the Host of Issues, Etc.

My mind is containing thoughts that are not suitable for it to contain or repeat on these boards. Suffice it to say that titles or letters after one's name do not excuse bigotry in the form of false piety.

[jpholding]

I think it would more technically correct to say that Jews and Christians worship the same person (YHWH) but that they believe differently on how YHWH has interacted with history, particularly since the first century. So ask this:

If party A believes that the Lone Ranger was a hero who arrested criminals, and party B believed that he was a server at a soup kitchen, do they admire the "same" Lone Ranger?

[Conductor42]

Shalom ddlewis86,

The first Talmud was not compiled until the 4rth Century, and the 2nd until the 6th, long after your Messiah had gone away.

When you say "Modern Jews", which sect of Judaism would you be referring to? Most Jews today are Reform, and most Reform Jews are agnostic.

[ddlewis86]

I think that even the Jews claim that we don't worship the same God.

They believe in ONE God, and the Trinity doctrine seems to fly in the face of this belief.

Just a thought.

[Fideist345]

ddlewis86:

I think that even the Jews claim that we don't worship the same God.

They believe in ONE God, and the Trinity doctrine seems to fly in the face of this belief.

Just a thought.

Is this how you intend to refute Todd Wilken's claim that Christians and Jewish people don't worship the same God, ddlewis86? I mean, that was what you said your intent was here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/sho...383#post317383

wasn't it?

[spl_cadet]

I believe that we worship the same God, but the Jews do not have the revelation that shows Him to be a Trinity.

Eh? Jesus was not proclaimed to be God until the council of Nicea. Any perceived claim to the contrary is just that: perceived.

Wrong. The Trinity was believed since Christ came. It was simply defined at the Council of Nicea because of the Arian heresy.

And it is a claim made by humans who argued the nature of Christ for two hundred years before Constantine forced a final confrontation.

And still arguing. But Gnosticism, Arianism, Sabellianism, and other assorted heresies have always been pretty small (though Arianism was probably the largest of all, including Protestantism).

And just prior to Nicea, the vast majority of Christianity agreed that Jesus was a created being.

Source?

Yet, Athanasius’ theology prevailed and in what some said was a miraculous event, the council voted Jesus in as God.

No, they simply defined the orthodox faith.

Thus was born religious bigotry.

Really? I could have sworn it started a whole lot earlier, what with the crucifixion of Jesus, the martyrdom of St. Stephen, the beheading of St. Paul and upside-down crucifixion of St. Peter, the burning of St. Polycarp, etc.

Suddenly people who had been Christians were heretics.

Actually they'd always been heretics.

They were forced to recant or face the possibility of execution.

Name on Arian who was executed. Remember, Constantine merely granted religious tolerance, not state backing.
Now then, if you had said "face the possibility of excommunication" you'd be right.

Romans did not fool around. And from that time on, the Roman backed Christian orthodoxy did not either.

Actually, the rulers and the army tended to favor Arianism. And aren't you forgetting Julian the Apostate?

[Fideist345]

Today @ 11:50 AM post located here
spl_cadet:

I believe that we worship the same God, but the Jews do not have the revelation that shows Him to be a Trinity.

I'll buy that, sort of...

“ Eh? Jesus was not proclaimed to be God until the council of Nicea. Any perceived claim to the contrary is just that: perceived. ”



Wrong. The Trinity was believed since Christ came. It was simply defined at the Council of Nicea because of the Arian heresy.

Wrong. Catholic tradition is not history. I would suggest maybe J. M. Roberts’ History Of The World (One volume) or someone similar – maybe Will Durant's volume that covers the period, and then use the bibliography if needed.

“ And it is a claim made by humans who argued the nature of Christ for two hundred years before Constantine forced a final confrontation. ”



And still arguing. But Gnosticism, Arianism, Sabellianism, and other assorted heresies have always been pretty small (though Arianism was probably the largest of all, including Protestantism).

Protestantism is pretty small? But you are correct, Arianism was rampant.

“ And just prior to Nicea, the vast majority of Christianity agreed that Jesus was a created being. ”



Source?

Look up Arianism. Especially in the Eastern church. Arius taught that Jesus was a creature. You should be able to find this in something as basic as an encyclopedia.

“ Yet, Athanasius’ theology prevailed and in what some said was a miraculous event, the council voted Jesus in as God. ”



No, they simply defined the orthodox faith.

No. There was no doctrine of homoousios prior to Nicaea.

[snipped more tradition posed as history]

“ They were forced to recant or face the possibility of execution. ”



Name on Arian who was executed.

Who said any Arian was?

Remember, Constantine merely granted religious tolerance, not state backing.

No. Run out and get a copy of J. M. Robert’s History of The World. Begin reading at page 228.

Now then, if you had said "face the possibility of excommunication" you'd be right.

There wasn't any "possibility" about it. Anyone who didn't recant fell from communion and was declared a heretic. And at that point where they were no longer under the umbrella of Constantine's orthodox council. That made them fair game for the Roman authorities.

“ Romans did not fool around. And from that time on, the Roman backed Christian orthodoxy did not either. ”



Actually, the rulers and the army tended to favor Arianism. And aren't you forgetting Julian the Apostate?

Could you be thinking of Mithraism in the Roman army? Nobody said that there were no Arians after Nicea, or semi-Arians for that matter. They were just at odds with the church Constantine backed and declared heretics by the orthodox. But Julian The Apostate was not among them. Julian attempted to restore the Pagan cults and on top of that he based his reinstatement of the old Gods on the model of the Christian church. Theodosius then banned public worship of the ancient gods again in 380. He was the one that actually declared Christianity the Roman state religion.

[ddlewis86]

Mohler says Jews worship different God
___By Trennis Henderson
___Kentucky Western Recorder
___LOUISVILLE, Ky.--Neither Muslims nor Jews worship the same God as Christians, according to Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
___"It is often said--in fact it is now routinely claimed--that Muslims worship the same God as the Jews and the Christians," Mohler said.
___But Christians do not serve the same God as that of Jews and Muslims, he insisted, because the Jews have rejected Christ and the Muslims have replaced the God of the Bible with Allah.
___Mohler spoke about Islam, Judaism and Christianity during a recent chapel message titled "Theology Matters." The message was part of the school's annual Heritage Week.
___His comments about Judaism are reminiscent of remarks made two decades ago by Bailey Smith, former president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
___Smith, who declared in 1980 that "God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew," unleashed a firestorm of protests. He later met with national Jewish leaders, expressing "deep regret for any hurt to the Jewish community." Smith said if he had to do it over again, "knowing how it would be misinterpreted," he would not make the initial statement.
___Mohler's assessment that Muslims worship a different God than Christians is not likely to draw protest from Baptists, but his distinction between the God of Judaism and Christianity could. Many Baptists--conservatives and moderates alike--see Christianity as a fulfillment or extension of Judaism and have sought to build bridges between the two religions.
___In his chapel address, Mohler said if the God of the Bible is to be believed, then Christians have no choice but to speak the truth about other religions, including Islam and Judaism. He quoted John 14:9, where Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father."
___"That's a very difficult statement," he said. "We believe that there is one God who has revealed himself in the Old Testament and the New Testament. We must be very clear that to reject Jesus Christ is to reject the Father."
___That view "is so politically incorrect," Mohler acknowledged. "It breaks all the rules of American etiquette. But if the Christian church will not be clear about the Christian gospel, who will?"
___The Christian God is the only God, Mohler said, and he is known through salvation through Jesus Christ alone.
___"On what authority would we possibly say such impolite things?" Mohler asked. "There is only one authority, and that is the authority of God's inerrant and infallible word. ... There is no arrogance in this, for it is not ours. We are saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ."
___

The Baptist Standard
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2001/...nt/mohler.html

I am currently doing some research on this topic. I appreciate all of your responses.

It does seem to me that today's concept of Judaism does not worship the same god of Christianity JUST by the simple fact that they deny the Trinity thus denying Christ.

[Jason Clark]

"sigh" Well at last I can see what becomes of people who embrace emotion over reason.

J M Roberts, writer of such "wonders" of historical research as "Antiquity Unveiled: Ancient Voices from the Spirit Realms Proving Christianity to Be of Heathen Origin" leaps to the defence of Feideist's ridiculous position.

No. There was no doctrine of homoousios prior to Nicaea.

His source? Roberts again?

The doctrine of Trinity is familiar to anyone who reads the New Testament and as J P Holding shows here trinitarian doctrine was closely related the Jewish wisdom philosophy.

As for the writers of the Gospels or any of the other books, to dissent from traditional authorship requires the dissenter to provide proof. A book (scroll) dating from the appropriate period with another author's name would suffice as sufficient evidence to cast doubt on traditional authorship I think.

[Fideist345]

Today @ 05:29 PM post located here
Jason Clark:

"sigh" Well at last I can see what becomes of people who embrace emotion over reason.

J M Roberts, writer of such "wonders" of historical research as "Antiquity Unveiled: Ancient Voices from the Spirit Realms Proving Christianity to Be of Heathen Origin" leaps to the defence of Feideist's ridiculous position.

Are we going to see any actual argument or are we supposed to be satisfied with assumed conclusion and personal attack?

His source? Roberts again?

Sorry, no. Guess again?

The doctrine of Trinity is familiar to anyone who reads the New Testament and as J P Holding shows here trinitarian doctrine was closely related the Jewish wisdom philosophy.

So, are we going to see how, or are we just invited to read a web site?

As for the writers of the Gospels or any of the other books, to dissent from traditional authorship requires the dissenter to provide proof. A book (scroll) dating from the appropriate period with another author's name would suffice as sufficient evidence to cast doubt on traditional authorship I think.

I'm really not sure what the above statement refers to.

edited to add a URL for the J. M. Roberts I actually use for quick historical reference (I own the volume prior to this newr one):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

[Sacrificial Ram]

Hi. I am new to the message board and I hope I don't start off as too controversial. I found this article and i have been looking for Scriptural backup to refute the author's claim if possible. I appreciate any responses to this thread. Thank you all in advance.






No. Jews and Christians do not worship the God.

The Old Testament people of God did indeed worship the same God Christians worship today. The vast majority of them however, turned away from the true God, though a remnant always remained (Luke 2:25).

By the time of Jesus’ appearing, His own people were practicing Judaism (a religion formed as much by the Talmud as by the Old Testament), not the true faith of the Old Testament. Jesus says to those Jews (John 8:36-47):

"You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me; for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

Jesus says, No one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6). There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God.

The problem with the Jews was NOT that they "merely" rejected Jesus while retaining the worship of the true God (which is impossible). The problem is that they rejected Jesus precisely BECAUSE they reject the true faith of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus says to them, If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me (John 5:46).

There is no worship of the true God apart from faith in Jesus. Jews and Christians do not worship the same God. This is not hyperbole, this is cold, hard Biblical fact.

With respect to Jesus, modern day Jews are little different than their New Testament counterparts. They reject him. However, as was also the case in the New Testament, when a Jew is brought to faith in Jesus, he is returned to the faith of the Old (and New) Testament and to worship of the true God.

Paul writes (2 Corinthians 3:14-16):

Their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Paul knows this and writes (Romans 9:3-8):

For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; neither are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED." That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Jews and Christians do no worship the same God. This is precisely why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have continued to proclaim the true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit to both Jew and Gentile. This is why Jesus, Paul and the Church throughout history have proclaimed Jesus as the only mediator between God and man, the only name given among me by which we must be saved and the One Who said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one some to the Father except through me."

The Rev. Todd Wilken is the Host of Issues, Etc.

http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/ar.../jewschrst.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's New / Resources / Services / Links / Home

Of course, the Jewish people would say that the Christians turned from the God of Isreal to worship the false god of Jesus, a paganistic concept that
was introduced by the Greek Converts to Chsitianity.

And, of course, quotes from the New Testament won't matter, because according to any religion other than Christianity, the New Testament is just a set of books written by man, not inspired by god.

[Jude3b]

Yes, if they are both saved (born-again). Jesus taught "You must be born-again" and if a Jew believes on Jesus and is saved - they become the same as every other Christian that believes on Jesus and is saved. If they are both saved - they are both true Jews, which are true Christians and therefore woship the same God. If they are not saved, most likely they are their own god and satan is also their god.

[Conductor42]

The problem with the Jews was NOT that they "merely" rejected Jesus while retaining the worship of the true God (which is impossible). The problem is that they rejected Jesus precisely BECAUSE they reject the true faith of their fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus says to them, If you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me (John 5:46).

I missed this part.

The Torah does not include a single reference to a Messiah. What was Jesus talking about then - that's what I'd like to know.

[Jude3b]

I missed this part.

The Torah does not include a single reference to a Messiah. What was Jesus talking about then - that's what I'd like to know.

There are numerous passages in the Old Testament, that address the fact that Messiah would come. They start as far back as Genesis 3:15.