Is Muhammad greater than Christ?

[CuriousBob]

But the slaying of women and children by the Christian crusaders in the holy land doesn't count, right?

it's only wrong when "they" do it

Everything I said went right over your head! It is quite obvious that you have completely overlooked everything I said about the Christ of Christianity and the anti-Christ-like (or the most Muhammad-like) actions of Christians who slay innocent harmless people. Christians who slaughter innocents are a whole lot more like Muhammad and his most devout followers than they ever could be of the Christ of Christianity or of the most Christ-like Christians. Christ never ever ever commanded any of His disciples to do anything that resembles the terrorist mentality of Muhammad. Nor did He ever command them to do anything that any of Muhammad's closest companions would have done by Muhammad's command.

Muhammad personally beheaded hundreds of Jews for the horrible crime of simply refusing to believe in the lunacy that spewed forth from his lips. The only physical harm that the Christ of Christianity personally meted out to the Jews was to assemble a scourge with which to drive them out of the temple when, as usury charging money changers, they used the Temple to do their own corrupt business.

Muhammad's greatest guarantee of a place in Islam's totally sexual paradise centers around his command for all Muhammadans to go to war with, slaughter, and humiliate every man, woman, and child who simply refuses to acknowledge that his blatant and blasphemous lunacy happens to be the only true religion on earth. Contrary to this same Muhammad of Islam, the Christ of Christianity reserves the greatest rewards in heaven for those who believe on His name and love their neighbors (including their enemies) as they love themselves. In fact, he suggests that He will personally see to it that all who practice injustice or wickedness such as that which Muhammad and his most devout followers practice will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The greatest commandments of the Christ of Christianity were to love the God of Israel or the God of the Jewish Fathers and to love one's neighbor (including one's enemy) as one loves one's self. Christians who fail to obey that command are a lot more like Muslims or miserable failures than they could ever be like the Christ of Christianity.

[apostoli]

Hello CuriousBob,

You have made many accusations against me, but in doing so you give the impression that you are intent on rejecting the advise given by Jesus "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

I don't have much of a problem with the gist of what you are saying, since you qualified most of it with the words “once evident in Western Christian history”!

And still evident in certain "Christian" countries.

The only problem I have with it is the way in which you, perhaps conveniently, like a typical liberal

I'm far from a libertarian. My creedo you might label socialism, but that would be an error. I term it Christian, where possible to treat all equally, tend to the widow, orphan and destitute, and most importantly rewarding appropriately those who contribute to society according to their capacity, rather than those that use ursary to enrich themselves to the detriment of the masses.

...gloss over the most obvious difference between the most un-Christ-like behavior in those who profess to be followers of the Christ of Christianity and the most Christ-like behavior.

In the dominant Christian tradition I was educated in, there is a teaching of the three eclesia = political, social and the church. In some western societies the church is very hard to find.

Anyone who is unfamiliar with the teachings and example of the Christ whose name is that from which the title, “Christianity” was derived is bound to think, after reading what you just said, that the Christianity that the Christ of the New Testament inspired is no better or worse than the Islam that the Muhammad of Islam inspired.

Historically "Christian" was once a derogatory term applied to those who opposed the teachings of the apostles. In time it became a badge of honour. (cp. 1 Peter 4:16)

Imo, we should acknowledge that many persons have aspirations to have a closer relationship to God. Some use winding paths, imo others find a straight path. In my observation your teachers have led into a maze, hopefully you will find a path.

Your choice of words throughout this entire post of yours leads me to believe that you don’t want anyone who happens to be ignorant of the Christ behind Christianity to discover who He is and what kind of example He obligated everyone who points to Him as Lord or Savior to follow.

Ah! I want people to come to know the Jesus that says he did not come to judge, and don't judge lest you be judged. The Jesus of christian scripture! By way of parable: not once in the NT did Jesus directly reveal himself to the Jews as the Messiah. The only time he made a direct declaration was to a Samaritan woman, and this caused the only mass conversion we encounter in the gospels. The Jews disliked the Samaritans perspective intensely, in the same way you appear to dislike the Muslims perspective. A.John says at John 1:11, in the first advent "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him". Personally, I don't want to be counted in the same way as those who cling to the temple cult on the second advent. So I will show respect to those who are devout in their worship of God, even though in theology I may have a different opinion to them. And following the example of the good Sammaritan, I will defend them, when I encounter the same type of Jewish polemic that has been used against the followers of Christ over the centuries.

It would be beneficial to you to reflect on Jesus' words at John 6:44 "No one can come to Me [Jesus] unless the Father who sent Me draws him". How can we participate in this? I suggest by not being exploitive and vindicate.

You could have told the whole truth instead of a half-truth. But you didn’t. You told only that which appears to have suited your purpose, which is to make ignoramuses think that the Christ of Christianity is no better than the Muhammad of Islam.

Your premise is flawed. Islam holds Christ (Isa) is greater, because it is Isa (Jesus) that has been appointed judge over the whole world.

This convinces me that you are an enemy of the Christ and a friend of the adversary (i.e., “the accuser of the brethren”, “that old serpent”).

Remember, the mud you throw is likely to stick to you in the day of judgement. Jesus indicates the self righteous are like white washed tombs...

In order to make Islam appear on a par with Christianity, you have deliberately refused to mention the fact that when Christian nations behave in the most Christ-like fashion they most certainly do not inspire crusades against member of other nations who have consistently and publicly demonstrated a willingness to be and remain harmless towards the harmless citizens of those Christian nations.

I'm not aware of there ever being a Christian nation that behaved in even an elemental Christ-like fashion. Imperialism comes immediately to mind, and more particularly the economic imperialism still current...

You didn’t even qualify your statement by suggesting that the truly unjust actions of the crusades were most certainly not inspired by the Christ of Christianity (i.e., the Christ of the canonical and historically sound New Testament documents). What I have just pointed out about your first statement is evidently what this entire post of yours is all about.

I didn't mention the Crusades. I refered to more modern occurances, and particularly occurances that occured within a national society that considers itself predominately Christian. Not much we can do about society generally, but you must admit Western activities currently and in the past aren't the best witness of Christ...

I doubt very much that you have any interest in anything other than half-truths when it comes to discussing this subject. Are you afraid of the truth? Why do you speak like a treasonous liberal or pseudo Christian?

I speak as a rational human being, who is concerned for the individuals well being, physical and spiritual. I have no need to ramb Jesus down peoples throats. I'm more intent on displaying Christ's compassion for people, so that the Father can draw them to him.

If you are American I assume you are aware that the USA was the only nation in the world that bred their slaves like cattle. And the slaves had no rights! Even Jefferson (author of the bill of rights) was a slave owner.

Here you go again. You conveniently neglect to mention the fact that Jefferson himself was a deist, not a Christian, and the fact that Islamic nations alone were where rich Americans once looked for a seemingly endless supply of slaves.

Not so much in the USA. In the Islamic world slavery (employment) was a way of life, but the slaves had rights. Even in the later Spanish and French systems slaves could buy their freedom (in their spare time, they could pursue their own interests). In the Portugese system they could even buy a certificate of whiteness, that gave them full equality. Not so in the USA. They were treated as chattel. In fact one county had a law that you could shoot a slave for fun, but not a dog.

To be fair though, even Jesus saw nothing wrong with slave ownership. However, His teachings and example made it quite obvious that He would never have approved of slave owners who did not treat their slaves as Christ treats His bride (i.e., His Church, not a place of worship); that He did not approve of those who did not allow their slaves the freedom to worship and follow the meek and mild Christ of the New Testament.

Fair comment. Years ago on TV I watched a documentary (might have even been 60 minutes), where the team went to a modern slave market, bought a female slave and they gave her her freedom. Next day she had placed herself for sale on the block. In my country and I assume yours we go to an employment agency.

You also forgot to mention the fact that they defended their actions most adamantly by pointing to the godless, harebrained, and damnable doctrine that Charles Darwin made popular, though he was not the originator of that doctrine.

Actually the American religious right defended their practices on the basis of Genesis 9:25. People like Jefferson used the excuse that the Negros weren't human (though he seemed open on the matter, at least he freed his barstard half caste children). Ultimately, it was the Darwinists types that proved the Negros were in fact human (something already known to most of the world by the fact we could in-breed).

Although I am not sure of which genocide (e.g., the Indians or some other group) you are referring to, the possibility or probability of such is not out of the question and does not pose a problem for me as I do not view America or any nation as a perfect example of a Christ-like nation. However, I am certain of one thing with regards to early America’s and all truly Islamic nations’ values: Early Americans could not point to any law, in either the Old or New Testament, that condoned, let alone demanded, the physical murder or beheading, the physical genocide, or the physical torture of those who did not believe in the God or in any of the prophets of the Bible.

Read Deuteronomy & Numbers. There is at least one incident where Moses was very upset that the Israelites spared at least the women and children, and ordered all but the virgins be killed. Then there is Deut 13, where even if you are enticed by your own brother to follow another God, you are to kill him.

Like I suggested before, there is little if any difference between Moses teaching and Islam. Thank God, that Christians are no longer under the yoke of Moses.

Islamic societies and all truly Islamic societies, on the other hand, are established upon laws that demand this sort of punishment for those who do not SUBMIT or SURRENDER to Allah and his prophet (eternal misery be upon him) and Islamic laws (Sharia) are as Islamic as any laws or legal systems get.

Same rules as Moses, and later generations applied.

I am convinced that as long as the Shahada is repeated, your statement will remain the statement of a hopeless wishful thinker.

So whats wrong with saying "There is no god but Allah..." After all the Nicea creed declares that we believe in one God the Father... The only objection I can think of is those such as the Arians that advocated belief in three Gods.

From a Muslims perspective "Muhammad is Allah's messenger." The apostles of Christianity are declared messengers of God (messenger/one sent, being the meaning of apostle).

Again, you conveniently neglect to mention that he was/is a very Un-Christ-like Christian, at best.

Have you never read A.Paul's appeal at Phil 3:17 "join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern." , Muhammad, within the confines of his society was a stand out, compared to the average American fundementalist. A defective man yes, but a man who did his best to end idolitary of man made conceptions. Credit where credit due, even if I believe he didn't, imo, have a complete picture.

The fact remains: To identify oneself with Islam and the Islamic community one must publicly declare the Shahada, which is an admission that he/she believes that the Muhammad (a most blasphemously ridiculous example of a good man) of whom the Quran demands allegiance to and of whom the Hadith/Sunnah describes in exhaustive detail is the last and the greatest of the prophets and that his example is the best example that a Muslim can possibly follow.

A.Paul claimed his example was the best example. (Phil 3:17).
______________

That is quite a bold statement! I would like to see how you would back it up. Are you referring to Sharia or Shiite law?

What a Muslim scholar says and what actually happens in the Islamic world do not appear to be the same when I look into current Islamic punishments of infidels and dissidents in nations that are governed by those laws. Besides, the four schools of Jurisprudence, with regards to Islamic laws, continue to agree on the murderous punishments that must be meted out to dissidents and infidels. So, I don’t know what that Muslim scholar was trying to say or hide.

A'hem. I believe the death penalty is advocated by most American fundementalists for various secular offences, and is enforced in several American states.
______________

On the contrary, it seems, more than anything to the contrary, you make a pip squeak out of a monster. According to Islamic sources, Kadija (i.e., an extremely un-Christ-like Coptic Egyptian widow) contributed significantly to the main reason that Muhammad became the monster he was. Until he ran to her for comfort and received reassurance from her that his revelations were not evil but good he was terrified that he was possessed by evil jinn.

New story to me. Whats your source?

I understand that the only widows and poor that he did give money to were those who believed in the lunacy about Allah and Gabriel that spewed forth from his lips. I guess you aren't aware that the most decisive reason that Muhammad had for fleeing to Medina was to escape being persecuted by the Meccans who called him a madman (a name that he earned fair a square) and to escape from possible harm to his person.

The accusation you give against Muhammad is the same the pagans used against the Christians who protested against polytheism. Muhammad is said to have done a Jesus, and attempted to have cleansed Mecca of its idols.

That is an outright lie, if I ever heard one. The Shahadah, which every Muslim must publicly confess, as well as the Quran and Hadith, as well as typical Islamic reactions to cartoons of Muhammad and teddy bears named after him, as well as Sharia laws make it quite obvious that what you have just told is a blatant / transparent lie.

Obviously you have never heard of the iconclast wars within Christianity.

Here you go again! You conveniently neglect to mention the fact that a particular practice and that which inspires that particular practice may not necessarily be the same thing. The Christ of Christianity does not inspire the stoning of harmless individuals or groups. The Muhammad and Allah of the Quran and Hadith do. I see a huge contrast here; no similarities whatsoever.

Tell that to the very Christian mobs in New York. To the ancestors of those that participated in the Missourie massacres, where women and children were herded in to barns and burnt to death, for no other reason than their niave belief in an American, proposed prophet etc etc etc.

There is an old saying, one can catch more flys with honey rather than vinegar. I really see no Christ like qualities in the vinegar that you and your aspirants want to dispense...Much simplier to emmanate the love of God, rather than invective...

[barnasha]

thankfully, muslims don't share your crazy views about Islam

[CuriousBob]

So far, it appears as if the only two participants (apart from myself) in this discussion have not made any valid points whatsoever that address the issues that I started this thread with. Instead they have chosen to avoid it in their attempt to force me into a discussion that compares the followers of Muhammad ibn Abdullah with the followers of Jesus Christ.

With me, as with everyone who takes the clearest teachings of the Bible most seriously, it is a given that everyone who makes a serious effort to imitate the example that Jesus Christ set for the world (as that example is clearly portrayed in the Bible) is never, in this body, going to be as perfect as He was, but is certainly going to greatly increase his or her odds of behaving better than the impostor, the madman, the chronic liar, the deceiver, the rapist, the sex offender, the murderous thug, or the criminal that Muhammad (through the texts that settle all disputes among Muslims) clearly demonstrated himself to be.

The topic of this thread is not concerned with the behavior of Muslims so much as it is with the behavior of their most revered prophet (i.e., Muhammad ibn Abdullah). Nor is the topic of this thread concerned with the behavior of Christians as it is with the behavior of their most revered redeemer (i.e., Jesus Christ). For this reason, I feel obligated to refuse to be sidetracked from the discussion I want to have.

If anyone wishes to compare Christians with Muslims and vice versa, please feel free to do so in another thread or stay away from this thread altogether. The topic I have chosen for this thread clearly suggests that it is not my intention to discuss any other topic in this thread.

Everyone who wishes to discuss this topic is welcome to discuss it here and everyone who wishes to get away from this topic is not welcome here. Is that clear?

[barnasha]

If your diatribe, dripping in slander and insult, is supposed to be relevant, it's probably best others are excluded from the 'discussion'

bible teaches not to slander

[apostoli]

So far, it appears as if the only two participants (apart from myself) in this discussion have not made any valid points whatsoever that address the issues that I started this thread with.

So far all you have done is put forward unsupported defamatory opinion, and displayed a Pharissitic attitude rather than any semblance to the example of Christ - not a good look!

Instead they have chosen to avoid it in their attempt to force me into a discussion that compares the followers of Muhammad ibn Abdullah with the followers of Jesus Christ.

Which imo is a valid course, as concerning whether either group in the majority actually follow the example of their exemplars.

With me, as with everyone who takes the clearest teachings of the Bible most seriously, it is a given that everyone who makes a serious effort to imitate the example that Jesus Christ set for the world (as that example is clearly portrayed in the Bible) is never, in this body, going to be as perfect as He was, but is certainly going to greatly increase his or her odds of behaving better than the impostor, the madman, the chronic liar, the deceiver, the rapist, the sex offender, the murderous thug, or the criminal that Muhammad (through the texts that settle all disputes among Muslims) clearly demonstrated himself to be.

Unsubstantiated defamation is a sure sign of an anti-Christ! None of your accusations are supportable from history.

As a Semitic tribal leader Muhammad was at the least a more righteous leader than King David, who is a documented rapist and murderer (2 Sam 11 & 12), an upsurper of the high priesthood (2 Sam 24:21-25), and who inspired worship of himself along side God (1Chron 29:20; Ps 45:11).

It would be useful if you stuck to facts rather than emotive falsifications. It would be even more useful if you at least demonstrated some semblance of following Jesus Christ.

The topic of this thread is not concerned with the behavior of Muslims so much as it is with the behavior of their most revered prophet (i.e., Muhammad ibn Abdullah).

And his behaviour is comparable to his Christian peers of the time. In effect he was a victim of his social circumstance = the corruption and conflicts ensuing in the Christian church within his region.

Whether Muhammad was used as a type of Messianic Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) to the Ishmalite people or not I do not know. But given Genesis 17:20, one would assume that God made provision for the children of Ishmael that is external to Jewish tradition. Given "Islam" is only a few centuries younger than "Christianity", I am reminded of Gamaliel's advice "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God." (Act 5:38-39).

But more importantly I remind you of Jesus' teaching that only his Father can draw people to him. You, I and anyone else are surperfluous...Though I hope that by being an example of the charity and love I find in Christ, I might incline people to seek the path to him...

Nor is the topic of this thread concerned with the behavior of Christians as it is with the behavior of their most revered redeemer (i.e., Jesus Christ). For this reason, I feel obligated to refuse to be sidetracked from the discussion I want to have.

Your whole polemic is based on the practices of fundamentalist minorities within Islam, and politicised Islam (which is directly comparable, and equivalent, to the excesses of politicised Christianity), rather than the essential teaching of Islam.

If anyone wishes to compare Christians with Muslims and vice versa, please feel free to do so in another thread or stay away from this thread altogether. The topic I have chosen for this thread clearly suggests that it is not my intention to discuss any other topic in this thread.

The topic of this thread as YOU composed it is "Is Muhammad greater than Christ?". As Muslims believe Isa (Jesus) has authority to judge the whole world, and Muhammad doesn't, the answer is obvious...

It seems you have a very un-Christ like agenda. Your unsubstantiated defamations and polemic indicate who you truely follow (see John 8:31,44)

Everyone who wishes to discuss this topic is welcome to discuss it here and everyone who wishes to get away from this topic is not welcome here. Is that clear?

This is a public forum, not a fasicist state!

[Bowman]

But given Genesis 17:20, one would assume that God made provision for the children of Ishmael that is external to Jewish tradition.

The authors of the Koran never once have Jesus addressing the ‘children of Ishmael’.

Jesus always addresses the ‘children of Israel’.

Even the Koranic heaven is reserved for spiritual Israel….again, no mention of Ishmael…as there is no place for them in heaven.

Thus…any follower of islam thinking that they are descendent from Ishmael means certain death, as even the authors of the Koran mention that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel’s people, only.

The topic of this thread as YOU composed it is "Is Muhammad greater than Christ?". As Muslims believe Isa (Jesus) has authority to judge the whole world, and Muhammad doesn't, the answer is obvious...

What if the Koranic 'Muhammad' was merely an epithet for the Biblical Jesus Christ?

What then, brother...?

[Bowman]

Having trouble....brother...?

[barnasha]

per Koran, Islam started way before Jacob(israel), and before Moses.

[Bowman]

per Koran, Islam started way before Jacob(israel), and before Moses.

Show us.

[Yogi]

It seems to me, you have a tendency to think any Christian who does un "Christ"ain acts in the name of Christianity, can not be Christian, therefore those acts can not be blamed on Christianity. Self serving and silly argument. Therefore it keeps Christianity pure for you, and anyone challenging your thought process are liars and/or crazy people. Just silly.

[Michael3rd]

According to the Holy Qur'aan it speaks more about Isa son of Mary more the The Prophet Muhammad ( Pbuh )

Once as the sign of the hour -- Alamus Saa'ati )

Holy Qur'aan 43 ; 61 , Where It States ; And he (Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (Day of Resurrection) (i.e. Iesas (Jesus) descent on the earth).

As Rasuwl , 2 ; 87
Holy Qur'aan 2 ; 87 , Where It States ; And indeed, We gave Moosa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus (Jibrael (Gabriel)). Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned on the Qur'an 3 ; 84
Holy Qur'aan 3 ; 84 , Where It States ;Say (O Muhammad SAW): We believe in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Yaqoob (Jacob) and Al- Asbat (the twelve sons of Yaqoob (Jacob)) .and what was given to Moosa (Moses), Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allah) we have submitted (in Islam)."

The Messiah Jesus occurs in connection with Ar Ruhu -- 2 ; 253 ,
Holy Qur'aan 2 ; 253 , Where It States ;Those Messengers! We preferred some to others; to some of them Allah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour); and to Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), We gave clear proofs and evidences, and supported him with Rooh-ul-Qudus (Jibrael (Gabriel)). If Allah had willed, succeeding generations would not have fought against each other, after clear Verses of Allah had come to them, but they differed - some of them believed and others disbelieved .If Allah had willed, they would not have fought against one another, but Allah does what He likes.

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a witness Shahidan - in the Qur'an 4 ; 159
Holy Qur'aan 4 ; 159 , Where It States ;And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him (Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being), before his (Iesa (Jesus) or a Jews or a Christians) death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Iesa (Jesus)) will be a witness against them.

If you need more I can post more .

[smaneck]

Muhammadans/Muslims proudly proclaim that Muhammad ibn Abdullah (as he is portrayed in the documents that settle all disputes among those who proclaim it) is the last and the greatest of the prophets, even greater than the Christ of Christianity.

We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

[smaneck]

Show us.

And when Abraham, with Ismael, raised the foundations of the House, they
said, "O our Lord! accept it from us; for thou art the Hearer, the Knower.

O our Lord! make us also Muslims, and our posterity a Muslim people; and
teach us our holy rites, and be turned towards us, for thou art He who turneth,
the Merciful.

O our Lord! raise up among them an apostle who may rehearse thy signs
unto them, and teach them the 'Book,' and Wisdom, and purify them: for thou
art the Mighty, the Wife."

And who but he that hath debased his soul to folly will mislike the
faith of Abraham, when we have chosen him in this world, and in the the world
to come he shall be of the Just?

When his Lord said to him, "Resign thyself to me," he said, "I resign
myself to the Lord of the Worlds."

And this to this children did Abraham bequeath, and Jacob also, saying,
"O my children! truly God hath chosen a religion for you; so die not unless ye
be also Muslims."

Were ye present when Jacob was at the point of death? when he said to
his sons, "Whom will ye worship when I am gone?" They said, "We will worship
thy God and the God of thy fathers Abraham and Ismael and Isaac, one God, and
to Him are we surrendered (Muslims)."

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

[smaneck]

It seems to me, you have a tendency to think any Christian who does un "Christ"ain acts in the name of Christianity, can not be Christian, therefore those acts can not be blamed on Christianity. Self serving and silly argument. Therefore it keeps Christianity pure for you, and anyone challenging your thought process are liars and/or crazy people. Just silly.

When you compare the 'ideal' of your own religion to the 'reality' of someone elses, you can always come out ahead.