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  • #46
    Starlight,
    The Constitution has provisions for amendment.
    Under no circumstances was a judge supposed to be able to exclude portions based on his own personal understanding of what is relevant for today and what is not. That would essentially make a judge a dictator.
    We basically have oligarchy the way it is.

    Anyways I'm on vacation right now, so I won't be able to comment on this thread much more.
    Thank you for your thoughtful contributions.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
      Starlight,
      The Constitution has provisions for amendment.
      Under no circumstances was a judge supposed to be able to exclude portions based on his own personal understanding of what is relevant for today and what is not. That would essentially make a judge a dictator.
      We basically have oligarchy the way it is.

      Anyways I'm on vacation right now, so I won't be able to comment on this thread much more.
      Thank you for your thoughtful contributions.
      So you're gonna drink yourself into a stupor celebrating finally passing the IQ test. Third time was the charm, right?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        What is it with crazy right wingers thinking they should just read the constitution itself outside of any historical and legal knowledge of it, and them believing that the True interpretation of it will magically come to them by some sort of divine inspiration?
        The law should be taken at its word, what a crazy idea.

        The only claim that there is anything ambiguous and necessary of interpretation in the second amendment are left wingers like you who hate its very existance. So you pretend it's ambiguous with the purpose of finding a way to get rid of it that doesn't require a constitutional amendment.

        Furthermore, there is nothing in its history (I'm not even sure what you mean by "legal knowledge" here) that confirms the insane left wing interpretations that it actually means all sorts of things that are not mentioned (IE: protection for slavery), or worse, things it directly contradicts (like the claim it allows firearm regulation).

        I think it raises an interesting question of "what should a reasonable judge rule regarding a section of a constitution that appears to have expired?"
        No it doesn't because there's nothing that expired in the second amendment. A free state will never be guaranteed by anything (including a Federal standing army), so the right to bear arms will always be necessary.

        The amendment's own specified precondition for its relevance is the clause "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...", which as I've mentioned was something necessary during the slave era, and as Joel has mentioned was a reflection of the fact that in the pre-civil war era the US was more an EU-like collection of states than a single country in the modern sense. Now that the US is a unified country with a powerful federal government whose military is the most powerful in all the world's history, and now that states don't need their militias to keep the slaves from escaping, the statement in the second amendment that a well-regulated Militia is necessary for the security of the States appears to be false.

        So it seems to me that if a judge were to simply rule "this clause appears to have expired
        BTW this is the real problem with constitutions, even snakes like Starlight who claim to oppose judicial activism will conjure up the dumbest and most insane "interpretations" to get rid of a law they want.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #49
          It seems the purpose of Militias is to oppose the standing armies of governments. Who do you think fought the British army during the Revolution? The existence of policemen and a Federal army doesn't make the idea of a Militia obsolete. In fact, a well armed citizenry makes it that much harder for the government to impose a police state.

          Oh, but I do so like this notion that judges can simply declare parts of the law as having "expired", giving them free reign to make whatever arbitrary ruling they want.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
            Starlight,
            The Constitution has provisions for amendment.
            Under no circumstances was a judge supposed to be able to exclude portions based on his own personal understanding of what is relevant for today and what is not. That would essentially make a judge a dictator.
            We basically have oligarchy the way it is.

            Anyways I'm on vacation right now, so I won't be able to comment on this thread much more.
            Thank you for your thoughtful contributions.
            While I agree about your amendments point, that seems like the "you can always move" arguments people make about living in a given country. It's not that simple.
            I'm not here anymore.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
              While I agree about your amendments point, that seems like the "you can always move" arguments people make about living in a given country. It's not that simple.
              That's stupid. It's not supposed to be "simple," and yet it has been done dozens of times. The whole point of it being difficult is that it should reflect the sentiments of a large super-majority of the nation. The corollary is that the way the Constitution currently is, without any new Amendment, reflects the view of the nation. If one finds oneself out of step with that view, finds it impossible to persuade the necessary super-majority to agree, and cannot tolerate this set of affairs, then yes, move elsewhere, don't expect some loony activist (i.e. anti-Constitutional) jurist to change your diaper for you.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I don't think you're making the point you think you're making. The amendment process is written into the Constitution.
                So the writers of the Constitution knew it would need to be changed, and made sure to facilitate updates, extensions, alterations and improvements.

                So your claim that It's hard to improve on the Constitution of the United States is complete garbage, because improvements were anticipated, were facilitated, and have occurred.

                The point I'm making is that as usual you don't know what you're talking about. A point that you are making superfluous.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                Comment


                • #53
                  i would keep most like it is but do away with the electoral college.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    That's stupid. It's not supposed to be "simple," and yet it has been done dozens of times. The whole point of it being difficult is that it should reflect the sentiments of a large super-majority of the nation. The corollary is that the way the Constitution currently is, without any new Amendment, reflects the view of the nation. If one finds oneself out of step with that view, finds it impossible to persuade the necessary super-majority to agree, and cannot tolerate this set of affairs, then yes, move elsewhere, don't expect some loony activist (i.e. anti-Constitutional) jurist to change your diaper for you.
                    I never said it was supposed to be easy, but "large super-majority" may not be obtainable on literally anything in this country. Less rant, please.
                    I'm not here anymore.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      So the writers of the Constitution knew it would need to be changed, and made sure to facilitate updates, extensions, alterations and improvements.

                      So your claim that It's hard to improve on the Constitution of the United States is complete garbage, because improvements were anticipated, were facilitated, and have occurred.

                      The point I'm making is that as usual you don't know what you're talking about. A point that you are making superfluous.
                      Are you really so desperate to catch me out on something that you're just going to let yourself twist in the wind like this? You remind me of the kid on the playground who gets flattened by a single punch, staggers to his feet, and says, "Let that be a lesson to ya!"

                      Allow me to spell it out, just to humiliate you a little more:
                      • "It's hard to improve on the Constitution of the United States."
                      • "It's hard to improve on a document who's writers had the foresight to include the provision for future amendments."

                      These statements are equivalent and in no way contradictory.

                      Now I suggest you stay down this time.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Allow me to spell it out, just to humiliate you a little more:
                        • "It's hard to improve on the Constitution of the United States."
                        • "It's hard to improve on a document who's writers had the foresight to include the provision for future amendments."

                        These statements are equivalent and in no way contradictory.
                        They obviously aren't equivalent, since one references a specific document and the other doesn't.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          They obviously aren't equivalent, since one references a specific document and the other doesn't.


                          I figured the burning humiliation you felt from reading my last post would have put an end to your nonsense, but it seems I must redden your face a little more by spelling it out even more clearly.

                          You see, the statements can be combined:

                          "It's hard to improve on the Constitution of the United States, a document who's writers had the foresight to include the provision for future amendments."

                          Look, man, do the smart thing and walk away from this one.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            I figured the burning humiliation you felt from reading my last post...
                            In your dreams.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              In your dreams.
                              In that case, I apologize for overestimating your intelligence and sense of preservation.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                                I never said it was supposed to be easy, but "large super-majority" may not be obtainable on literally anything in this country. Less rant, please.
                                the super-majority requiremet is there to act as a buffer from political fashion. The reason why large super-majority is not obtainable on anything is because there's no real emergency necessitating a constitutional amendment (which is the point of amendments, to fix seriously wrong problems that cannot be fixed by legislation alone). They are there to protect people's rights and there should be a high bar for adding or removing from the constitution because otherwise you might as well not even have a constitution in the first place.
                                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                                Comment

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