What "perfect" meant

[FarEastBird]

First off, the bible says “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

God’s perfection has nothing to do with the notion of “lacking.” If so, then humans would not have been given the command to be perfect(not lacking); for it IS impossible for humans to be not lacking anything. So God’s perfection has nothing to do of being complete, of or not lacking.

God is Life, and Life has nothing to do with perfection. Life is continuously changing in times. We cannot subject the idea of completeness to Life. As God lives, He can have wants and needs. Wanting and needing does not make God imperfect, lacking the power to fill His wants and needs is what will make Him imperfect. I’ll say that NOT ALL of the aspects of the Godhead can be subject to the question of lack. God has the power to act on a whim, that, also, cannot be subject to be judged on the concept of perfection.




FEB

[headheart]

Maturity, can take a lifetime.

[The Pixie]

I think in that specific verse, Jesus is telling us to love everyone, and to love them completely; to be perfect in your regards to others, just as God does. You need to look at the context.

[franktalk]

To my knowledge the only one declared perfect by God was Job. But from a modern definition of perfect Job was not. So we read the Book of Job to obtain that image of the perfect man. In my eyes God does not care about the fluff that surrounds us but maintains His focus on the relationship He has with a man. In this regard Job was perfect, he lived his life with God, he trusted God and not man. Job understood that evil is not God and the ways of God are not man's. Job did not try and make God into a limited man.

[Whateverman]

I view "perfect" as being synonymous with omniscient, omnipotent, all-good, etc. It's roughly "the best everything that anything could ever possibly be, only better". As such, humans can never truly attain it

[headheart]

As such, humans can never truly attain it

Maturity is attainable, but requires considerable work. There are certainly levels of maturity, but most of us only get to be about 3 1/2 years old.

[FarEastBird]

Maturity, can take a lifetime.

I agree. Perfection meant Maturity, what do you understand of maturity with regard to the idea of "lacking."?

Or maybe what doyou think is perfected in reaching maturity?

Thanks,
FEB

[FarEastBird]

I think in that specific verse, Jesus is telling us to love everyone, and to love them completely; to be perfect in your regards to others, just as God does. You need to look at the context.

What it takes to be perfect in our regards to others?

I don't see that having love and regards to others would make us perfect. I do not see Christ's idea on of the perfection complementing love on that text.

On another place, Paul speaks of perfection as attaining and image, image of God.

Ephesians 4:13-14

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;



Thanks,
FEB

[FarEastBird]

To my knowledge the only one declared perfect by God was Job. But from a modern definition of perfect Job was not. So we read the Book of Job to obtain that image of the perfect man. In my eyes God does not care about the fluff that surrounds us but maintains His focus on the relationship He has with a man. In this regard Job was perfect, he lived his life with God, he trusted God and not man. Job understood that evil is not God and the ways of God are not man's. Job did not try and make God into a limited man.

Are you saying that attaining perfection is merely acknowledging God?

Thanks,
FEB

[FarEastBird]

I view "perfect" as being synonymous with omniscient, omnipotent, all-good, etc. It's roughly "the best everything that anything could ever possibly be, only better". As such, humans can never truly attain it

I believe that there is an essence perfection that is of God alone. And there is a perfection that is attainable by humans. I am aiming that by understanding the concept of those perfections, God will not be tied to the idea of nothing to to anymore.

I don't know how I will get there, but it is worth trying, I guess.

Thanks,
FEB

[Metacrock]

First off, the bible says “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

God’s perfection has nothing to do with the notion of “lacking.” If so, then humans would not have been given the command to be perfect(not lacking); for it IS impossible for humans to be not lacking anything. So God’s perfection has nothing to do of being complete, of or not lacking.

God is Life, and Life has nothing to do with perfection. Life is continuously changing in times. We cannot subject the idea of completeness to Life. As God lives, He can have wants and needs. Wanting and needing does not make God imperfect, lacking the power to fill His wants and needs is what will make Him imperfect. I’ll say that NOT ALL of the aspects of the Godhead can be subject to the question of lack. God has the power to act on a whim, that, also, cannot be subject to be judged on the concept of perfection.




FEB

Good point. The Greek in that passage, the word used to mean "perfect" in both the clause about us being perfect and the one about God being perfect is the term "teleo" from "telos" meaning "goal," or "point toward which something moves." In other words not perfect in the sense lacking nothing but in terms of being completed in relation to achieving a goal. We are seeking the goal of being like God, being like Jesus, God is already there.

that means the anti-God argument has no real meaning because that does not eliminate creation. In fact if anything in mandates creation and evolution as well. Even scinece doesn't recognize a goal of evolution, it fits.

[headheart]

FEB,
Try post #6 + a study of the book of Galatians.
EJS

[The Pixie]

FarEastBird

What it takes to be perfect in our regards to others?

I don't see that having love and regards to others would make us perfect. I do not see Christ's idea on of the perfection complementing love on that text.

But that is what Jesus was talking about.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Loving your own people is not good enough, Jesus says in verse 47. Love all people, as God does, in verse 48. Jesus is pretty clear here.

Does perfection therefore mean being perfect in the way we treat others? No (or at least not necessarily). Jesus' subject in verses 43 to 48 is not attaining perfection, but about how we treat others. He is saying that we should treat others in the prefect way that God treats others, he is not saying that you will be perfect if you treat others like that.

On another place, Paul speaks of perfection as attaining and image, image of God.

Why do you think they were using the word in exactly the same way, with regard to exactly the same facet of God? I would assume they were not even using the same language (Jesus in Aramaic, Paul in Greek).

[franktalk]

Are you saying that attaining perfection is merely acknowledging God?

Thanks,
FEB

By your words "merely acknowledging God" you seem to be diminishing the importance of the acknowledgment. I may be reading into what you say too much. For those who believe in God we feel it is a trivial thing to acknowledge God. But for those who do not believe the consequences are far reaching.

From God's point of view the universe is a created thing of no real importance. So any of our beliefs or ideas about the universe are nothing. But our relationship with God is very important to God. So having a relationship with God gets you in the area of perfection. All of doctrine and scientific nonsense means nothing.

[headheart]

But our relationship with God is very important to God. So having a relationship with God gets you in the area of perfection. All of doctrine and scientific nonsense means nothing.

Yes, it is. Yet, our problem is our relationship with ourselves. 99.9% of the time, we get the idea about a relationship with God correct, but we fail to deal with what is smack dab right in front of us. We are. Science and Doctrines, give us some insight about what it is that is blocking us from having this relationship with God, and in some sense there is a fragment of truth in both, but unless we really come to terms with what is blocking us from the Sunshine of His love, we are going to merely be applying cosmetic changes.

Sincerely,
Eric J. Sawyer