Why Don’t JP Holding’s Apologetics books sell better?

[Pitchforkpat]

And in Loftus' review of TIF is......(wait for it)...... "I'm the author of "Why I Became an Atheist," and the forthcoming edited book, "The Christian Delusion

Yeah, if you have a book and you want to make sure it sells a steady 2-3 books a day, just mention it in an Amazon review of another book and “Hey Presto!” You’re there. This kind of “marketing” won’t sell ANY product on a steady basis if the product is a dud. Clearly Loftus’ isn’t. It’s been selling steady now for years. Just hard for you chaps to accept isn’t it?

Hey, Loftus just sold at least two more copies of Why I Became an Atheist today. Hmmm…wonder if he wrote another Amazon review today.

[Pitchforkpat]

Loftus does have a big marketing edge on JPH in that he markets on many websites according to some of the posts here

See your own words “according to some of the posts here.”

I suspect the atheists who buy books outnumbers by a wide margin Christians who buy books similar to JPH's and Craig's other than Bibles. Also, 99% of Christendom is crap. Osteen, bah!

So you’re saying that Christians generally buy easy to digest crap as opposed to serious stuff. You’re not exactly supporting the team here Augustine.

Pitchy might be doing us a favor, spurring us to look for ways to make books like JPH's known to many more people. If as a result of this thread someone came up with a terrific idea, why then thank you Pitchy!

I acknowledged in the OP that this was a risk I knew I was taking.

[Pitchforkpat]

It may also be worth noting that Loftus is found within some bookstores. Just recently I found both his books in the Canadian bookstore called 'Chapters'. This is probably the biggest bookstore company in Canada

Really? I didn’t know that. That actually surprises me but, I’d say, that’s an indication that the book is getting a good following and reputation.

I'm speculating here but a relevant difference may be that people would then be paying for it. Perhaps his vitriol is tolerable or enjoyable when it is not paid for, although it is hardly worth the 20 bucks (or whatever).

I actually doubt the book would be as vitriolic as his typical posts on Tweb but I agree that many Christians would not want to pay real money for the thoughts of what they can see is a loud-mouthed, name-calling, arrogant wannabe. It’s fun to watch as a voyeur, but you’re not going to lay down your hard-earned cash for it.

[Raphael]

Yeah, if you have a book and you want to make sure it sells a steady 2-3 books a day, just mention it in an Amazon review of another book and “Hey Presto!” You’re there. This kind of “marketing” won’t sell ANY product on a steady basis if the product is a dud. Clearly Loftus’ isn’t. It’s been selling steady now for years. Just hard for you chaps to accept isn’t it?

Hey, Loftus just sold at least two more copies of Why I Became an Atheist today. Hmmm…wonder if he wrote another Amazon review today.

Boy, you really have a terrible habit of missing the point.

Every time I have encountered DJ on the Internet, and seen him in video doing a debate, he has punted his book. He is well known for doing this.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Keep in mind Loftus doesn't need to write about his own book in an Amazon review of another book. He does just fine selling it in a review of his own book!

And if the quality of something is reflected in how well it sells, Poodle Pat must accept that the Bible is of excellent quality then!

[MaxVel]

JP Holding is often spoke about as the biggest name in Internet apologetics. He has many fans both here at Tweb and throughout the Net. He has appeared on radio programs and runs one of the premier apologetics sights on the Web. One could almost call him a semi-professional apologist. Yet, sales of his books on Amazon are dismal.

I think you're rather inflating JPH's importance and popularity as an apologist. No disrespect to JPH, but people like William Lane Craig (who has a substantial website), Greg Koukl of Stand to Reason, and Matt Slick all have a higher Internet profile than JPH.

A fairer comparison would be John Loftus with one of them. After all, John is happy to accept the title of "One of Atheism's Top Apologists", so happy that he boasts about it on his blog.

His first apologetics book, The Impossible Faith, is often ranked over one million in Amazon sales rankings. I had noticed that, for about the last 10 days, it was ranked over 1,100,000. This means he sells about 2 to 3 books per month.

His other books, Trusting the New Testament, and Shattering the Christ Myth (ed. Holding with contributions from friends), don’t fair much better. They’re often ranked in the 800,000-900,000 thousand range.

By contrast, books by little-known amateur critics of Christianity often do better. Jason Long’s book, Biblical Nonsense: A review of the Bible for Doubting Christians, is regularly ranked from about 40,000 to 200,000. That means he’s pretty close to a book a day. And he’s just a pharmacist! Paul Farrell’s book, Illustrated Stories from the Bible (that they don’t tell you in Sunday School) lags a little behind Long’s book but is still ranked from about 60,000 to 400,000. And I don’t even know what he does for a living. The book just says he works in the health care industry.

But more importantly, frequent Tweb contributor, John Loftus, absolutely clobbers Holding. His book, Why I Became an Atheist, is usually ranked about 20,000 and sometimes is in the top 10,000. Loftus’ other book, The Christian Delusion, is does about the same.

So how many books does Loftus sell?

So, at the risk of boosting Holdding's sales, the question is, why are amateur sceptics, like Loftus selling so many more than Christian hero Holding’s efforts? Is it because atheism is on the rise?

I like the way you use rhetoric to pump up the apparent contrast: JPH is a "Christian hero" while Loftus a simple "amateur sceptic". Your rhetoric tries to make it seem that Loftus' better sales are a real blow for Christianity. Truth is, Loftus is always hyping his books, while JPH is not particularly interested in his sales.

The New Atheism fad probably has a lot to do with the sales figures. Loftus' book is (as I post) #31,000, WL Craig's 'Reasonable faith' is #13,000. How come Loftus sells so much less than WLC?

Is it because critical books are more fun?

Could be. Also could be because they're aimed at different target audiences.

Or is it because Holding's apologetics are not very good?

Hmmm... They're a lot better than your objections, and Loftus doesn't come close to the better apologists on TWeb.

Or are his books badly written and boring to read?

Could be. Of course that'd be a nice way of you avoiding dealing with the arguments. You're not becoming another Little monkey are you, Pat? That'd be so sad...

Thoughts?

I think you're looking for anything at all that you can use to poke Christians with. It's quite apparent from your responses to other posters that you're not interested in sincere discussion. Frankly I don't care if Loftus sells a billion books and JPH none at all. That would say nothing at all about the truth or otherwise of what they argue for.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm speculating here but a relevant difference may be that people would then be paying for it. Perhaps his vitriol is tolerable or enjoyable when it is not paid for, although it is hardly worth the 20 bucks (or whatever).

Just ignore answers you don't like and pretend as though your answers are correct eh? Some of the memorable and lovable Christian authors were not always nice, in their books and did throw in a few insults. For example, CS Lewis commented in Mere Christianity that people who claim they don't want to go to heaven because they don't want to be playing harps shouldn't talk about books they don't understand. GK Chesterton comments in Orthodoxy that the man that 'believes in himself' has a sign that says that above his door, in the insane asylum. Want a more recent example? David Bentley Hart calls Dan Brown a 'borderline illiterate' in his book Atheist Delusions. Now get off your high horse already because insults, in literature, have been common for centuries (in fact, Jonathan Swift's short stories and book Gulliver's Travels are just insults to various figures and groups, of his time, put into a satirical work and his stories are still enjoyed and studied, to this very day). So try this again and times time, remove your foot from your rear end please.

[Milan]

Just ignore answers you don't like and pretend as though your answers are correct eh?

I used the word 'may' to express possibility, not actuality. If my answer is correct, then it is true that what I said is a possible truth, and that's it. I'm being awfully careful not to declare the competing answers as false; I'm merely stating what might be true.

Some of the memorable and lovable Christian authors were not always nice, in their books and did throw in a few insults. For example, CS Lewis commented in Mere Christianity that people who claim they don't want to go to heaven because they don't want to be playing harps shouldn't talk about books they don't understand.

Even if that's true, I don't think it's analogous to the frequency and degree of JPH's vitriol. JPH's vitriol partially characterizes his behaviour. He's well known for this sort of nonsense, pixie. But can we say the same for Lewis? I doubt it. In fact, CS Lewis' statement, if he said it, seems rather flaccid.

GK Chesterton comments in Orthodoxy that the man that 'believes in himself' has a sign that says that above his door, in the insane asylum.

See my comments directly above.

Want a more recent example? David Bentley Hart calls Dan Brown a 'borderline illiterate' in his book Atheist Delusions.

That's unfortunate. But, I'm unsure why you think this is analogous to JPH. Does this sort of behavior partially characterize Bentley? Is it part of his reputation?

Now get off your high horse already because insults, in literature, have been common for centuries (in fact, Jonathan Swift's short stories and book Gulliver's Travels are just insults to various figures and groups, of his time, put into a satirical work and his stories are still enjoyed and studied, to this very day). So try this again and times time, remove your foot from your rear end please.

I've said all I need to state, pixie.

[lilpixieofterror]

I used the word 'may' to express possibility, not actuality. If my answer is correct, then it is true that what I said is a possible truth, and that's it. I'm being awfully careful not to declare the competing answers as false; I'm merely stating what might be true.

And in the years I have seen interactions with JPH, on this board, it seems only those who were his targets (and many times, started it with him) whine about insults.

Even if that's true, I don't think it's analogous to the frequency and degree of JPH's vitriol. JPH's vitriol partially characterizes his behaviour. He's well known for this sort of nonsense, pixie. But can we say the same for Lewis? I doubt it. In fact, CS Lewis' statement, if he said it, seems rather flaccid.

Really? That's funny because in JPH's web site, maybe 5% of his entire web site material contains any sort of 'vitriol' and often times, those people show themselves to be more than deserving of it. So do you always whine this much or have you always had this thin of a skin? I'd really hate to see you at my work because I have a feeling that they would have you running out, with tears streaming down your face, within 5 minutes because JPH is pretty tame compared to some of the stuff I hear.

See my comments directly above.

And see my comments above and as JPH himself says, his first book was about as dull as it can get.

That's unfortunate. But, I'm unsure why you think this is analogous to JPH. Does this sort of behavior partially characterize Bentley? Is it part of his reputation?

Bentley is one of the leading scholars of the Orthodox church and I found his book full of scholarly materials and some humorous bits and pieces that kept me wanting to read more. Besides, as I pointed, maybe 5% of all of JPH's articles contain any sort of insults and the insults he does dish out, are often pretty tame and in a public debate forum (which makes insults far more common, than in books). I should take you to my work, if you think any of this is bad. They'd have you running away, with tears streaming down your cheeks, within 5 minutes.

I've said all I need to state, pixie.

And you have showed that you're a good whiner that most likely has a very thin skin, but nothing else to actually back his arguments up. The fact remains though, if the author insulting people actually made book sales worse, several authors would find themselves in a lot of trouble, yet Mere Christianity, Orthodoxy, and Gulliver's Travels are all considered literature classics, so your argument, has no legs.

[Augustine2004]

Pitchy ought to list all the possible reasons why JPH's books don't sell as well as any given book by someone else (Loftus), then show they don't add up to anything that overcomes concluding that JPH's work just doesn't 'resonate' (whatever that may mean!)

[Milan]

And in the years I have seen interactions with JPH, on this board, it seems only those who were his targets (and many times, started it with him) whine about insults.

I'm unsure what your point is. I've never interacted with JPH.

Really? That's funny because in JPH's web site, maybe 5% of his entire web site material contains any sort of 'vitriol' and often times, those people show themselves to be more than deserving of it.

Numbers pulled out of thin air, eh?

Bentley is one of the leading scholars of the Orthodox church and I found his book full of scholarly materials and some humorous bits and pieces that kept me wanting to read more.

Why mention this?

And you have showed that you're a good whiner that most likely has a very thin skin, but nothing else to actually back his arguments up. The fact remains though, if the author insulting people actually made book sales worse, several authors would find themselves in a lot of trouble, yet Mere Christianity, Orthodoxy, and Gulliver's Travels are all considered literature classics, so your argument, has no legs.

What argument? I asserted what might be true. That's it.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm unsure what your point is. I've never interacted with JPH.

So what facts are you going off from?

Numbers pulled out of thin air, eh?

That is actually a number he gave himself and from what I've seen of his articles, that seems to be it. Do you have anything that proves otherwise, yes or no?

Why mention this?

Because if insults had the effect you seem to believe it does, David Bentley Hart and others, like him, shouldn't sell books, yet they do, thus destroying your entire argument. Besides, I have dealt with John and his filth and found him to be far worse and insults than JPH ever was, yet, he still sells books. The point is, your argument is flawed and has no legs.

What argument? I asserted what might be true. That's it.

So you presented something, without facts or reason to back it up and now you're trying to back out of having to present substance to your assertion? How funny!

[jpholding]

More trolling, eh pitchy? Craig is also a popular author that has written several apologetic books and is often known, by Christian and atheist alike, as one of the best known apologist out there. So pitchy, why are you comparing somebody that is well known and popular to JPH, who is not as well known and popular (which, I might add, JPH has been mentioned, in several books as a source for further reading by popular authors, like Craig)?

Also depends which Craig book is in view. RF is written for a popular audience; but Time and Eternity is more cerebral, and it ranks very low on Amazon, as does his book with Copan on ex nihilo creation.

[jpholding]

Maybe Holding's sales would be better if he stopped his vitriol? Speaking for myself, I often feel disengaged and annoyed with his more venomous writings. I'm unsure what his books are like, though. I've only read several of his articles/essays.

They're offered with a scholarly tone, except the one for youth, which uses light humor. As for sales related to vitriol, surely you jest. Vitriol sells far better (Dawkins, Coulter, etc). Try being a little less beholden to subjectivity for a change.

[jpholding]

Is it just me or does this guy sound a lot like a sock puppet?

He's likely just mad because I tanned his bottom on Mark 16:9-20 some time ago. He's one of THOSE sorts.