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Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    yeah. my point was that being intolerant isn't something either side can lay exclusive claim to. I think it has to do with a person, not their belief system, or lack of. But then again, each side will always think the other is judging them to be intolerant unfairly.

    I agree with Seer. My life has gotten better since I have become a Christian. People like to whine about being Christian takes all the fun out of life and how they would rather end up in hell partying with all their friends than sitting around in heaven playing a harp, but as someone who became a Christian late in life (40) I can compare both life styles and say that being a Christian is better than not being one, speaking for myself.
    Well I mentally left Christianity at age 16 and physically at age 17-8, and I can say I am happier being free from the worries of organized religion. When I was religious I always felt like I wasn't good enough, and like any fun I had was taking away from potential good I could do in the world. Now I can watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without the the guilt I would have felt previously (of course my parents were fairly strict and didn't want me doing those things anyway, so I didn't). There was always the mental stress of worrying if God was talking to me or not, and it seemed like anything that led to greater personal suffering was a message from God.
    As for an afterlife, I do not know whether there is one or not. I am a strong agnostic when it comes to life after death, but I figure there's no harm in pretending there's some sort of paradise after we die, since there's no way to tell. But one question I always had as a Christian is: wouldn't Heaven get kind of boring?
    Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

    "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

    "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Be a man FF? I enlisted in the Marine Corps when a war was going on, I was a professional Firefighter for a decade and was not religious until I was 37. So what self-knowledge are you speaking about?
      You obviously thought I was talking about bravery. Instead, what I had in mind is the idea that a Christian needs God or Jesus like a cripple needs a stick. The ailment is the religion and self knowledge is what happens to a person as they are cured.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        I think the greater question is, what does someone lose who does not believe, and Christianity IS true.
        The failing with Pascal's Wager is that this part is irrelevant. I don't know of any system that has a "believe just in case" clause.
        I'm not here anymore.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
          But one question I always had as a Christian is: wouldn't Heaven get kind of boring?
          How could one ever get board exploring the infinite nature of a Holy and Loving God? Where would our exploration or surprise ever end?

          In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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          • #20
            Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
            Well I mentally left Christianity at age 16 and physically at age 17-8, and I can say I am happier being free from the worries of organized religion. When I was religious I always felt like I wasn't good enough, and like any fun I had was taking away from potential good I could do in the world. Now I can watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without the the guilt I would have felt previously (of course my parents were fairly strict and didn't want me doing those things anyway, so I didn't). There was always the mental stress of worrying if God was talking to me or not, and it seemed like anything that led to greater personal suffering was a message from God.
            Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

            20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


            As for an afterlife, I do not know whether there is one or not. I am a strong agnostic when it comes to life after death, but I figure there's no harm in pretending there's some sort of paradise after we die, since there's no way to tell. But one question I always had as a Christian is: wouldn't Heaven get kind of boring?
            we will have a whole universe to explore and all of time to learn, love and enjoy God's creation and each other. how can that be boring?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
              You obviously thought I was talking about bravery. Instead, what I had in mind is the idea that a Christian needs God or Jesus like a cripple needs a stick. The ailment is the religion and self knowledge is what happens to a person as they are cured.
              Except I wasn't cured my first 37 years as an agnostic. How long exactly does this self-knowledge and cure of yours take?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                yeah. my point was that being intolerant isn't something either side can lay exclusive claim to. I think it has to do with a person, not their belief system, or lack of. But then again, each side will always think the other is judging them to be intolerant unfairly.

                I agree with Seer. My life has gotten better since I have become a Christian. People like to whine about being Christian takes all the fun out of life and how they would rather end up in hell partying with all their friends than sitting around in heaven playing a harp, but as someone who became a Christian late in life (40) I can compare both life styles and say that being a Christian is better than not being one, speaking for myself.
                I was saved at 33 or 34. I have lost nothing and gained more than I ever imagined before that time. There is nothing from my life, or from any life I have heard described by any atheist, that I would trade the 40 or so years of living with Christ.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                  Well I mentally left Christianity at age 16 and physically at age 17-8, and I can say I am happier being free from the worries of organized religion. When I was religious I always felt like I wasn't good enough, and like any fun I had was taking away from potential good I could do in the world. Now I can watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without the the guilt I would have felt previously (of course my parents were fairly strict and didn't want me doing those things anyway, so I didn't). There was always the mental stress of worrying if God was talking to me or not, and it seemed like anything that led to greater personal suffering was a message from God.
                  As for an afterlife, I do not know whether there is one or not. I am a strong agnostic when it comes to life after death, but I figure there's no harm in pretending there's some sort of paradise after we die, since there's no way to tell. But one question I always had as a Christian is: wouldn't Heaven get kind of boring?
                  It very much sounds like you were under some imitation of Christianity. As a Christian I have never felt "not good enough," and my life includes more fun now than it ever did before. I don't want to watch R rated movies, and while I don't do video games I don't think that doing so should make you feel guilty. Plenty of Christians here are gamers. If God wants me to know something He can handle it, I don't have to fret about it. I am confident in an after life, but if there was not one, my life has improved so much since became a Christian it is well worth it.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    You obviously thought I was talking about bravery. Instead, what I had in mind is the idea that a Christian needs God or Jesus like a cripple needs a stick. The ailment is the religion and self knowledge is what happens to a person as they are cured.
                    The thing that comes to my mind are the individuals that have died for their beliefs. Did they have their thumbs in their mouths as, for example, their throats are cut or their pastors and other leaders are murdered in front of them?
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                      The failing with Pascal's Wager is that this part is irrelevant. I don't know of any system that has a "believe just in case" clause.
                      Why is it irrelevant? If it's ok to ask the question of a believer, why isn't it ok to ask the same question to an unbeliever?

                      The unbeliever has an awful lot more to lose by living an unbelieving lifestyle than a Christian has in living a believing lifestyle.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                        The thing that comes to my mind are the individuals that have died for their beliefs. Did they have their thumbs in their mouths as, for example, their throats are cut or their pastors and other leaders are murdered in front of them?
                        any individuals have died for their beliefs in many diverse and conflicting beliefs, and many if not most non-Christian. 'Did they have their thumbs in their mouths?'
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          any individuals have died for their beliefs in many diverse and conflicting beliefs, and many if not most non-Christian. 'Did they have their thumbs in their mouths?'
                          True. Firstfloor was claiming that religion did not allow people to become better than the stage of sucking their thumbs. He was especially, I think, targeting Christianity. Perhaps not. I choose to respond as a Christian because Jesus said anyone who denied him will be denied by him in turn. I don't know how others would stand up for their faith.
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                            Now I can watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without the the guilt I would have felt previously .
                            I'm a Christian and I watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without feeling any sort of guilt what so ever.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              Why is it irrelevant? If it's ok to ask the question of a believer, why isn't it ok to ask the same question to an unbeliever?

                              The unbeliever has an awful lot more to lose by living an unbelieving lifestyle than a Christian has in living a believing lifestyle.
                              Are you suggesting that a non-believer, who genuinely considers the notion of God to be utter nonsense, pretend to believe otherwise on the off-chance that he might be wrong? You don't think that an (allegedly) omniscient deity might see through this stratagem?
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                Are you suggesting that a non-believer, who genuinely considers the notion of God to be utter nonsense, pretend to believe otherwise on the off-chance that he might be wrong? You don't think that an (allegedly) omniscient deity might see through this stratagem?

                                I don't see how you get that from what I said. Never said a word about pretending to believe.

                                If the question to a Christian is, what if you're wrong, what do you have to lose, then why can't the same "what if" question be asked of an unbeliever?


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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