Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    You haven't shown that "Opposition to God is in itself evil" at all. You haven't even shown that anyone is opposing God, rather than merely opposing those who champion bigotry and discrimination while fleecing innocents of their possessions, their peace and their lives.
    I'm talking within a framework of a Christian worldview. From that point of view opposing God is evil, even if the opposing happens unknowingly. And the so called "Christians" who are "fleecing innocents of their possessions, their peace and their lives." are in fact opponents of God themselves.

    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    "Opposition to God is in itself evil" fits right in with the claims of authoritarian cult-leaders like David Koresh and Aravindan Balakrishnan that outsiders are enemies who cannot be trusted and who are out to destroy the truth.
    The thing with cult-leaders is that they often preach a (part of a) distorted form of the truth. No one would follow them if they didn't.

    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    You are better than this.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Roy View Post
      "Because the Easter rabbit is sad if you spin your eggs anti-clockwise" is another possible way to answer. It's just as meaningful and worth considering as yours, the only difference is that you believe one of these claptrap concepts but not the other.
      In my opinion atheism is just as intellectually bankrupt as you consider Christianity to be.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        "Because the Easter rabbit is sad if you spin your eggs anti-clockwise" is another possible way to answer. It's just as meaningful and worth considering as yours, the only difference is that you believe one of these claptrap concepts but not the other.
        And in any case, my initial post on this issue was a reply to stfoskey15 where he said:

        Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
        I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?
        He was clearly asking for justification for the concept of an eternal hell within the Christian framework, which is what I tried to provide. It's not my problem you and Tassman decided to join the discussion later without taking into consideration the context.

        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Try viewing such things from our perspective. You might realise how you've just embarrassed yourself.
        I'm not the one here who should feel embarrassed.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          I'm talking within a framework of a Christian worldview.
          Your own Christian worldview, or some melange of various faiths? You know that atheists don't oppose God, and that the atheists here frequently oppose those you claim are "opponents of God" more than most Christians do. So why characterise SoR as evil?
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Your own Christian worldview, or some melange of various faiths?
            My own, of course. Why would it be anything else?

            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            You know that atheists don't oppose God, and that the atheists here frequently oppose those you claim are "opponents of God" more than most Christians do. So why characterise SoR as evil?
            I said he does things that are evil, which is something I believe of everyone, even those who are already Christian, including myself. I'm not singling out SoR in way. Anyone who still has their old nature is going to continue to sin, the difference between those who are Christian and those who are not is that the Christian is hopefully fighting against his old nature.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              No, but it would mitigate the crime.
              No it doesn't. Not even in a court of law.


              Only if such an entity exists. And attempting to make amends for wrongs committed can go a long way to "erasing the bad".
              No. it never erases the bad. The past is fixed and happened. All you can do is try to move on and do better. It never changes or erases what you already did. Making amends can make you feel better but it never changes what you did.

              And if God doesn't exist, then this conversation is a waste of your time. Go away.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Then there's no reason to believe what is, on examination, an illogical and incoherent mess that's frequently pushed by money-grubbing authoritarians and upheld by ignorant incompetents.
                what does that even mean?
                Thanks Sparko.
                You're welcome.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Roy View Post
                  You haven't shown that "Opposition to God is in itself evil" at all. You haven't even shown that anyone is opposing God, rather than merely opposing those who champion bigotry and discrimination while fleecing innocents of their possessions, their peace and their lives.

                  "Opposition to God is in itself evil" fits right in with the claims of authoritarian cult-leaders like David Koresh and Aravindan Balakrishnan that outsiders are enemies who cannot be trusted and who are out to destroy the truth.

                  You are better than this.
                  If God exist, your very denial of him is "opposition" to God. You reject him, and his ways. You oppose him.

                  But even when you lie to someone, or cheat someone, or steal something, you are doing evil. That is opposing God too.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    My own, of course. Why would it be anything else?
                    Because you characterised SoR as opposing God, even though you know he isn't.
                    I said he does things that are evil, which is something I believe of everyone, even those who are already Christian, including myself. I'm not singling out SoR in way. Anyone who still has their old nature is going to continue to sin, the difference between those who are Christian and those who are not is that the Christian is hopefully fighting against his old nature.
                    Some Christians don't seem to do that, and some non-Christians do.

                    From my vantage point there is little difference. I don't think there is even a difference in people's justification - many Christians do act out of humanitarian reasons, not just because they think that is what God wants.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      what does that even mean?
                      That if not believing in your god doesn't matter, there's no downside to not doing so - and since none of the myriad religions/cults/sects/denominations can agree on what, if anything, 'god' classes as acceptable behaviour, I might just as well ignore all of them and derive my own ethics without bothering about religious decrees.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        If God exist, your very denial of him is "opposition" to God. You reject him, and his ways. You oppose him.
                        If. Why should I care about your hypothetical? Do you think you are opposing Osiris, or Shub-Niggurath, or Loki?

                        But even when you lie to someone, or cheat someone, or steal something, you are doing evil. That is opposing God too.
                        Tell that to your brethren who do all that and more.
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Would it be better if I said we all have the possibility of acting like a jerk under certain circumstances(what theologians call a sin nature). Sin is when you act like a jerk towards God even when you don't fully realize that you are doing that. Because what idiot would dare to be a jerk towards God knowingly? So, our misbehavior has also made God look bad to other people on account of you not dying on the spot. Of course we'd be upset if you died on the spot also. Ouch. And we clearly did not want to be friends with God, and and God couldn't have us be "friends", because who wants to be friends with a jerk? God wanted to fix this problem, so He sent the second person of the Trinity/Wisdom/the Word to become one of us, live a perfect life, die a shameful death for our sake so that we could be "friends"(not completely accurate due to God not being our equal), and then rise again in an imperishable body to reverse the shame and get His honor back. And then He'll eventually make a surprise return and everyone who accepted His offer of salvation will live happily ever after. Those who didn't can be jerks separated from God.


                          Or you could watch this video, which does a better job.

                          Last edited by Christianbookworm; 04-24-2017, 12:39 PM.
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Because you characterised SoR as opposing God, even though you know he isn't.
                            I don't know anything of the sort.

                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Some Christians don't seem to do that, and some non-Christians do.

                            From my vantage point there is little difference. I don't think there is even a difference in people's justification - many Christians do act out of humanitarian reasons, not just because they think that is what God wants.
                            This would be what the (confessional, although I have no idea about the more liberal ones) Lutheran churches would call civil righteousness. Anyone can keep themselves from doing outward forms of evil, and do works of good even without God's help. What no one can do however, without help from the Holy Spirit, is produce good works for the right reason which would be fear of, love of, and trust in God.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              That if not believing in your god doesn't matter, there's no downside to not doing so - and since none of the myriad religions/cults/sects/denominations can agree on what, if anything, 'god' classes as acceptable behaviour, I might just as well ignore all of them and derive my own ethics without bothering about religious decrees.
                              I didn't say it didn't matter. I said he doesn't punish you for non-belief. He just doesn't forgive you for non-belief. You are punished for your sins. Or forgiven of your sins. So belief does matter.

                              Basically we are already criminals and getting ready to be put on trial for our crimes. God is the judge who says anyone who asks and joins his rehab program before getting to trial gets off without going to jail. You can either accept or reject his offer. If you don't even believe the judge even exists, you can't accept his offer, so you will end up going to jail when you find out he does exist and you are on trial. You go to jail for the crimes you committed. Not for not believing in the Judge. But belief does matter.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                If. Why should I care about your hypothetical? Do you think you are opposing Osiris, or Shub-Niggurath, or Loki?
                                Sure I am opposing them if they do exist. Loki might be pretty pissed at me. If they exist, I am sure they don't appreciate me not worshiping them. I am screwed.

                                Tell that to your brethren who do all that and more.
                                yep. we all do. like I said in my last post, we are all criminals. The only difference is that I will be forgiven. It doesn't mean I am any better than you. I could be much worse.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, Yesterday, 03:01 PM
                                13 responses
                                41 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                129 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                78 responses
                                411 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                303 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X