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Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Your argument, such as it, is grounded in several unsubstantiated claims. Namely that humankind is inherently sinful and that the only “true human nature” has been that of Jesus and Adam and Eve before the fall. None of this can be shown to be true, they are faith-statements, nothing more, and cannot be considered as meaningful contributions to the discussion.
    Of course they are meaningful contributions. Even if you don't accept them as true they are still one possible way to answer why simply doing good things isn't enough to gain access to heaven. This isn't a discussion about whether or not humans are inherently sinful, or what constitutes true (uncorrupt, rather) human nature, but a discussion of why doing good things isn't enough, given a Christian worldview.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      I often struggle to believe you're Canadian. People in Canada are famously kind, nice, and polite.
      Acting like you know anything about Canadians. I bet you can't even name three of their albums.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
        The Egyptian Christians killed by the ISIS might disagree with that.
        Do you suppose that the suicide bomber sat down with the Christians to discuss their options and that he would have gone home had the Christians preferred to convert to Islam?

        However, the suidide bomber DID die for his beliefs.
        Last edited by firstfloor; 04-23-2017, 04:01 AM.
        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
        “not all there” - you know who you are

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          Of course they are meaningful contributions. Even if you don't accept them as true they are still one possible way to answer why simply doing good things isn't enough to gain access to heaven. This isn't a discussion about whether or not humans are inherently sinful, or what constitutes true (uncorrupt, rather) human nature, but a discussion of why doing good things isn't enough, given a Christian worldview.
          You're presenting an argument grounded in unverifiable faith-statements to SoR and myself, both atheists. Why would this be meaningful?
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            You're presenting an argument grounded in unverifiable faith-statements to SoR and myself, both atheists. Why would this be meaningful?
            I suppose it's not meaningful if you're unable to view things from perspectives that are different from your own.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              Your argument, such as it, is grounded in several unsubstantiated claims. Namely that humankind is inherently sinful and that the only “true human nature” has been that of Jesus and Adam and Eve before the fall. None of this can be shown to be true, they are faith-statements, nothing more, and cannot be considered as meaningful contributions to the discussion.
              The depravity of man is at the same time the most empirically proven fact and the most intellectually denied - Malcolm Muggeridge

              I wouldn't want to go through life with my every thought projected onto a screen above my head so that everyone could see. Would you?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by stfoskey15 View Post
                It was probably my step-dad's pacifist Mennonite views that gave me the impression what he believed was what all good Christians believed. And I never connected all that much to people my age at church, so I was ignorant of what other Christians believed on the matter. My mom had similar views as my step-dad and my biological dad was more lenient, but I spent less time with him.



                I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?
                if you were to murder someone, for example, would saving someone later cancel out the murder?


                doing good doesn't erase the bad you have done. it still happened.

                the good news is that God does give us a way to "erase" the bad and it takes nothing but accepting his forgiveness and choosing him as your Lord.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  the good news is that God does give us a way to "erase" the bad and it takes nothing but accepting his forgiveness and choosing him as your Lord.
                  I really hope they all get it before it is too late.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                    Do you suppose that the suicide bomber sat down with the Christians to discuss their options and that he would have gone home had the Christians preferred to convert to Islam?

                    However, the suidide bomber DID die for his beliefs.
                    Assuming the suicide bomber is Muslim, I doubt he would have "discussed" options with anyone. My understanding of such a mentality is that he *might* demand they acknowledge Allah and his prophet. True Christians would refuse, and the bomber would then see his way clear to blow everybody up. The irony is, in the Christian view, they would go to heaven while the Muslim idea is that Allah *may* allow the bomber into paradise. Correct me if I'm wrong.
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Jude View Post
                      The depravity of man is at the same time the most empirically proven fact and the most intellectually denied - Malcolm Muggeridge
                      Malcolm Muggeridge had no moral authority to make ex cathedra pronouncements such as this. He was just a journalist, for goodness sake, and he was wrong. For all our negative impulses we have many positive ones as well, such as attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy and reciprocal altruism.

                      I wouldn't want to go through life with my every thought projected onto a screen above my head so that everyone could see. Would you?
                      Well perhaps you're the one who's "depraved". It wouldn't worry me.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        if you were to murder someone, for example, would saving someone later cancel out the murder?

                        doing good doesn't erase the bad you have done. it still happened.
                        No, but it would mitigate the crime.

                        the good news is that God does give us a way to "erase" the bad and it takes nothing but accepting his forgiveness and choosing him as your Lord.
                        Only if such an entity exists. And attempting to make amends for wrongs committed can go a long way to "erasing the bad".
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          who said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing.
                          Then there's no reason to believe what is, on examination, an illogical and incoherent mess that's frequently pushed by money-grubbing authoritarians and upheld by ignorant incompetents.

                          Thanks Sparko.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            Evil exists on a scale. The fact that you haven't murdered anyone doesn't mean you haven't performed evil. Opposition to God is in itself evil.
                            ...
                            You haven't shown it to be "obviously perfectly moral and natural" at all.
                            You haven't shown that "Opposition to God is in itself evil" at all. You haven't even shown that anyone is opposing God, rather than merely opposing those who champion bigotry and discrimination while fleecing innocents of their possessions, their peace and their lives.

                            "Opposition to God is in itself evil" fits right in with the claims of authoritarian cult-leaders like David Koresh and Aravindan Balakrishnan that outsiders are enemies who cannot be trusted and who are out to destroy the truth.

                            You are better than this.
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                              Of course they are meaningful contributions. Even if you don't accept them as true they are still one possible way to answer why simply doing good things isn't enough to gain access to heaven.
                              "Because the Easter rabbit is sad if you spin your eggs anti-clockwise" is another possible way to answer. It's just as meaningful and worth considering as yours, the only difference is that you believe one of these claptrap concepts but not the other.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                I suppose it's not meaningful if you're unable to view things from perspectives that are different from your own.
                                Try viewing such things from our perspective. You might realise how you've just embarrassed yourself.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

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