Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

[mossrose]

Yup.

[stfoskey15]

I'm a Christian and I watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without feeling any sort of guilt what so ever.

It was probably my step-dad's pacifist Mennonite views that gave me the impression what he believed was what all good Christians believed. And I never connected all that much to people my age at church, so I was ignorant of what other Christians believed on the matter. My mom had similar views as my step-dad and my biological dad was more lenient, but I spent less time with him.

who said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing. you are already condemned for your sins, your own actions. believing is just a drowning man grabbing a rope tossed to him. If you don't grab the rope the guy tossing it isn't punishing you for not grabbing it, you are punishing yourself for not grabbing it.

I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?

[mossrose]

I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?

In OUR minds, that is how we would like it to be. But that is not what God says.

And He is the standard-setter, we are not.

[Tassman]

He would give you exactly what you deserve.

And what's that, eternal punishment for sincerely not accepting a nonsensical world-view which is well past its use-by date. Or should one pretend to believe, just in case?

[Tassman]

who said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing. you are already condemned for your sins, your own actions.

Oh really, then then there's not much I can do about it is there...except to try and be a good person by my own worldly standards and not judge others.

believing is just a drowning man grabbing a rope tossed to him. If you don't grab the rope the guy tossing it isn't punishing you for not grabbing it, you are punishing yourself for not grabbing it.

And just what is the evidence for the existence of this "rope" and of the "guy tossing it"? Sounds all rather delusional to me, but then I don't have the "eyes to see" do I?

[JonathanL]

I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?

You know that sinful nature thing that your church (hopefully) was preaching about? Unless that is taken care of in some way all your good acts will amount to nothing. It's not a matter of measuring your good and bad acts against each other and seeing which ones weigh the most, it's a matter of human nature corrupting even the good things we do.

[Sea of red]

You know that sinful nature thing that your church (hopefully) was preaching about? Unless that is taken care of in some way all your good acts will amount to nothing. It's not a matter of measuring your good and bad acts against each other and seeing which ones weigh the most, it's a matter of human nature corrupting even the good things we do.

If doing good things amounts to nothing in the eyes of this deity, then spending eternity with it sounds like the true hell. Seriously, I'm not just being cute. I really would rather be in hell separated from this being if that's it's nature.

I think the idea that human nature (what you mean by that) corrupts even the most noble of things we do is a very dark idea.

[shunyadragon]

I often struggle to believe you're Canadian. People in Canada are famously kind, nice, and polite.

True of most Canadians, but half my Irish family is Canadian, and they are a rather cantankerous argumentative lot. I was almost a Canadian, except my father chose USA in 1942 when he had a choice between the staying in the Canadian Air Force and the US Navy as a pilot.

[Tassman]

You know that sinful nature thing that your church (hopefully) was preaching about? Unless that is taken care of in some way all your good acts will amount to nothing. It's not a matter of measuring your good and bad acts against each other and seeing which ones weigh the most, it's a matter of human nature corrupting even the good things we do.

Our "nature" is not intrinsically "sinful"...this is a nonsensical religious concept devised so as to give Jesus something to atone for.

Our nature is multifaceted comprising positive instincts such as reciprocal altruism, cooperation, sympathy and empathy, as well as destructive instincts such as selfishness and aggression.

[JonathanL]

If doing good things amounts to nothing in the eyes of this deity, then spending eternity with it sounds like the true hell. Seriously, I'm not just being cute. I really would rather be in hell separated from this being if that's it's nature.

It's not that doing good things amounts to nothing that is the problem, it's the fact that having a sinful nature means you're going to continue doing evil for eternity if you're let in to heaven. Anyone who enters heaven with their former nature still intact is going to corrupt it.

And that thing about rather being in hell than spending eternity with God? I think that's pretty much how everyone thinks when they start to realize how high of a standard this Being has, atleast initially.

I think the idea that human nature (what you mean by that)

Except it's not human nature. It's a corruption of human nature. We only see it as normal human nature because we're so immersed in it. The only people who have ever exhibited true human nature is Jesus, and possibly Adam and Eve before the fall.

[Tassman]

It's not that doing good things amounts to nothing that is the problem, it's the fact that having a sinful nature means you're going to continue doing evil for eternity if you're let in to heaven. Anyone who enters heaven with their former nature still intact is going to corrupt it.

Sez who?

Except it's not human nature. It's a corruption of human nature. We only see it as normal human nature because we're so immersed in it. The only people who have ever exhibited true human nature is Jesus,

...according to man-made Christian doctrine.

and possibly Adam and Eve before the fall.

Adam and Eve didn't exist. The central myth of Christianity has been disproved by modern science,

[JonathanL]

Sez who?



...according to man-made Christian doctrine.



Adam and Eve didn't exist. The central myth of Christianity has been disproved by modern science,

Is "nuh-uh" the only thing you're capable of contributing to a discussion?

[Sea of red]

It's not that doing good things amounts to nothing that is the problem, it's the fact that having a sinful nature means you're going to continue doing evil for eternity if you're let in to heaven. Anyone who enters heaven with their former nature still intact is going to corrupt it.

Evil? I haven't done anything evil in my life. I've certainly made mistakes, but I've never gone into the realm of moral evil. The standard of what constitutes evil within Christianity is something I don't take very seriously; especially from the deity of the bible, which seems to constantly order acts most sane non-Christians consider disgusting.

And that thing about rather being in hell than spending eternity with God? I think that's pretty much how everyone thinks when they start to realize how high of a standard this Being has, atleast initially.

High standard is an understatement. This deity has created natural desires and urges that were infact, essential for the homo sapiens to flourish in the first place, yet he forbids them. For instance take sexual law. God forbids sex before marriage and deems it sinful according to Christian doctrine (though I've seen no explicit commandment) however, sexual reproduction having such boundaries would have meant the end of the human species evolutionary speaking. If humans had not 'hooked-up' you and I would not be here to talk about it. I'm not about to say there's nothing of value in the Bible morally, but it is this trend of God commandments running against common sense ,and what is obviously perfectly moral and natural, that damages it's credibility beyond repair in my view. It just one of many flaws that demonstrate to me that is the 'word of man'.

Except it's not human nature. It's a corruption of human nature. We only see it as normal human nature because we're so immersed in it. The only people who have ever exhibited true human nature is Jesus, and possibly Adam and Eve before the fall.

Seems like God could have just skipped all of this waste and toying with creatures he knows are destine to never recognize him, and just make humans that way for good - instead using free-will for twisted games.

[JonathanL]

Evil? I haven't done anything evil in my life. I've certainly made mistakes, but I've never gone into the realm of moral evil. The standard of what constitutes evil within Christianity is something I don't take very seriously; especially from the deity of the bible, which seems to constantly order acts most sane non-Christians consider disgusting.

Evil exists on a scale. The fact that you haven't murdered anyone doesn't mean you haven't performed evil. Opposition to God is in itself evil.

High standard is an understatement. This deity has created natural desires and urges that were infact, essential for the homo sapiens to flourish in the first place, yet he forbids them. For instance take sexual law. God forbids sex before marriage and deems it sinful according to Christian doctrine (though I've seen no explicit commandment) however, sexual reproduction having such boundaries would have meant the end of the human species evolutionary speaking. If humans had not 'hooked-up' you and I would not be here to talk about it.

I don't see how this is anything more than speculative evolutionary history. Humans would probably have survived fine in monogamous relationships.

I'm not about to say there's nothing of value in the Bible morally, but it is this trend of God commandments running against common sense ,and what is obviously perfectly moral and natural, that damages it's credibility beyond repair in my view. It just one of many flaws that demonstrate to me that is the 'word of man'.

You haven't shown it to be "obviously perfectly moral and natural" at all.

Seems like God could have just skipped all of this waste and toying with creatures he knows are destine to never recognize him, and just make humans that way for good - instead using free-will for twisted games.

What do you mean "destine to never recognize him"? Countless of people throughout the world during all of history have recognized Him.

[Tassman]

Is "nuh-uh" the only thing you're capable of contributing to a discussion?

Your argument, such as it, is grounded in several unsubstantiated claims. Namely that humankind is inherently sinful and that the only “true human nature” has been that of Jesus and Adam and Eve before the fall. None of this can be shown to be true, they are faith-statements, nothing more, and cannot be considered as meaningful contributions to the discussion.