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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI'm a Christian and I watch R-rated movies and play first-person shooters without feeling any sort of guilt what so ever.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postwho said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing. you are already condemned for your sins, your own actions. believing is just a drowning man grabbing a rope tossed to him. If you don't grab the rope the guy tossing it isn't punishing you for not grabbing it, you are punishing yourself for not grabbing it.Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by stfoskey15I don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?
And He is the standard-setter, we are not.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostHe would give you exactly what you deserve.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwho said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing. you are already condemned for your sins, your own actions.
believing is just a drowning man grabbing a rope tossed to him. If you don't grab the rope the guy tossing it isn't punishing you for not grabbing it, you are punishing yourself for not grabbing it.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostI don't buy that we're already condemned for our sins. Shouldn't the good things we do be able to balance out the bad things we do?
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou know that sinful nature thing that your church (hopefully) was preaching about? Unless that is taken care of in some way all your good acts will amount to nothing. It's not a matter of measuring your good and bad acts against each other and seeing which ones weigh the most, it's a matter of human nature corrupting even the good things we do.
I think the idea that human nature (what you mean by that) corrupts even the most noble of things we do is a very dark idea.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI often struggle to believe you're Canadian. People in Canada are famously kind, nice, and polite.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostYou know that sinful nature thing that your church (hopefully) was preaching about? Unless that is taken care of in some way all your good acts will amount to nothing. It's not a matter of measuring your good and bad acts against each other and seeing which ones weigh the most, it's a matter of human nature corrupting even the good things we do.
Our nature is multifaceted comprising positive instincts such as reciprocal altruism, cooperation, sympathy and empathy, as well as destructive instincts such as selfishness and aggression.Last edited by Tassman; 04-22-2017, 11:30 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sea of red View PostIf doing good things amounts to nothing in the eyes of this deity, then spending eternity with it sounds like the true hell. Seriously, I'm not just being cute. I really would rather be in hell separated from this being if that's it's nature.
And that thing about rather being in hell than spending eternity with God? I think that's pretty much how everyone thinks when they start to realize how high of a standard this Being has, atleast initially.
Originally posted by Sea of red View PostI think the idea that human nature (what you mean by that)
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's not that doing good things amounts to nothing that is the problem, it's the fact that having a sinful nature means you're going to continue doing evil for eternity if you're let in to heaven. Anyone who enters heaven with their former nature still intact is going to corrupt it.
Except it's not human nature. It's a corruption of human nature. We only see it as normal human nature because we're so immersed in it. The only people who have ever exhibited true human nature is Jesus,
and possibly Adam and Eve before the fall.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIt's not that doing good things amounts to nothing that is the problem, it's the fact that having a sinful nature means you're going to continue doing evil for eternity if you're let in to heaven. Anyone who enters heaven with their former nature still intact is going to corrupt it.
And that thing about rather being in hell than spending eternity with God? I think that's pretty much how everyone thinks when they start to realize how high of a standard this Being has, atleast initially.
Except it's not human nature. It's a corruption of human nature. We only see it as normal human nature because we're so immersed in it. The only people who have ever exhibited true human nature is Jesus, and possibly Adam and Eve before the fall.
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Originally posted by Sea of red View PostEvil? I haven't done anything evil in my life. I've certainly made mistakes, but I've never gone into the realm of moral evil. The standard of what constitutes evil within Christianity is something I don't take very seriously; especially from the deity of the bible, which seems to constantly order acts most sane non-Christians consider disgusting.
Originally posted by Sea of red View PostHigh standard is an understatement. This deity has created natural desires and urges that were infact, essential for the homo sapiens to flourish in the first place, yet he forbids them. For instance take sexual law. God forbids sex before marriage and deems it sinful according to Christian doctrine (though I've seen no explicit commandment) however, sexual reproduction having such boundaries would have meant the end of the human species evolutionary speaking. If humans had not 'hooked-up' you and I would not be here to talk about it.
Originally posted by Sea of red View PostI'm not about to say there's nothing of value in the Bible morally, but it is this trend of God commandments running against common sense ,and what is obviously perfectly moral and natural, that damages it's credibility beyond repair in my view. It just one of many flaws that demonstrate to me that is the 'word of man'.
Originally posted by Sea of red View PostSeems like God could have just skipped all of this waste and toying with creatures he knows are destine to never recognize him, and just make humans that way for good - instead using free-will for twisted games.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostIs "nuh-uh" the only thing you're capable of contributing to a discussion?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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