Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

[Kbertsche]

I said "God exists everywhere in the universe, and everywhere outside of the universe. He is not the universe. He existed before the universe was created, and he created it." - describing the Christian (and Jewish and Muslim) belief of Panentheism.

You ask me how I know it. I said "the bible"

Then you say the above.

Well DUH! we are DISCUSSING a faith-based belief. We are discussing what Christians BELIEVE about God. You as an atheist can take that as an accurate description of what Panentheism is and why Christians believe it. You don't have to believe in God to understand the concept of Panentheism.

You seem to get lost in these threads quite easily. Perhaps you should go back and review the last few pages each time before you post. It would make your newest posts not seem so idiotic.

I think you may be confused about the meaning of "panentheism". Perhaps some people use the term in different ways, but the normal meaning and usage of the term does not describe orthodox Christianity.

Pantheism says that everything is god; god and the universe are essentially identical.
Panentheism claims that the universe is part of god, but that god is more than just the universe.
Orthodox Christianity denies that the universe is part of God; God and the universe are separate and distinct. (Orthodox Christianity affirms that God is immanent in the universe as well as being transcendent, but this does not mean that the universe is part of God.)

Here is the definition from the IVP Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms:

Source: IVP Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms

panentheism. The belief that God’s being includes and permeates the entire universe so that everything exists in God. In contrast to pantheism, panentheists declare that God’s being is greater than and not exhausted by the universe. God is affected by each event in the universe, and thus God’s knowledge must change and grow. However, God simultaneously retains personal integrity and complete reality.

© Copyright Original Source

Note that in "panentheism", the universe is part of God's being. This is not orthodox Christianity!

[Sparko]

I think you may be confused about the meaning of "panentheism". Perhaps some people use the term in different ways, but the normal meaning and usage of the term does not describe orthodox Christianity.

Pantheism says that everything is god; god and the universe are essentially identical.
Panentheism claims that the universe is part of god, but that god is more than just the universe.
Orthodox Christianity denies that the universe is part of God; God and the universe are separate and distinct. (Orthodox Christianity affirms that God is immanent in the universe as well as being transcendent, but this does not mean that the universe is part of God.)

Here is the definition from the IVP Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms:

Source: IVP Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms

panentheism. The belief that God’s being includes and permeates the entire universe so that everything exists in God. In contrast to pantheism, panentheists declare that God’s being is greater than and not exhausted by the universe. God is affected by each event in the universe, and thus God’s knowledge must change and grow. However, God simultaneously retains personal integrity and complete reality.

© Copyright Original Source

Note that in "panentheism", the universe is part of God's being. This is not orthodox Christianity!

There are variations of panentheism. some believe that the universe is part of God, but others believe only that God permeates the universe but is ontologically distinct from the universe. The universe is not part of him, it is his creation, but he exists everywhere in it. That is what Christians believe.

[Kbertsche]

There are variations of panentheism. some believe that the universe is part of God, but others believe only that God permeates the universe but is ontologically distinct from the universe. The universe is not part of him, it is his creation, but he exists everywhere in it. That is what Christians believe.

I suggest that you check "panentheism" in some theology textbooks and theological dictionaries. I agree with you on what Christians believe, but this is normally denoted by the term "immanence", not "panentheism".

[InspectorG]

Has anyone ever applied Pascal's Wager to all the religions?

By definition, you have little to lose and a better chance, via hedging, of picking the correct religion.

[37818]

Has anyone ever applied Pascal's Wager to all the religions?

By definition, you have little to lose and a better chance, via hedging, of picking the correct religion.

Before I heard of Pascal's wager, on a dial up BBS discussion forum in the 1980's or early 1990's I proposed using a similar method to compare different beliefs two at a time. And by elimination taking two beliefs at a time come up with a best choice. And I was told, that was just Pascal's Wager. What did I know?

[Roy]

Well not every claim to be "Christian" is really Christian. And God who is omnipresent and infinite for starters. And then there is the Trinity explanation of God, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit who are distinct Persons are that One God.

Yes, those are some of the myriad different definitions of God that Christians use.

[Sparko]

Has anyone ever applied Pascal's Wager to all the religions?

By definition, you have little to lose and a better chance, via hedging, of picking the correct religion.

well

let's see:

Hinduism - if I don't believe I just come back to try again.

Buddhism - no afterlife so nothing to lose.

Islam - Not sure, the Koran says that "the people of the book" are blessed and it could mean Christians are saved, but then it could mean we are going to hell. Hard to tell because Islam believes that you are judged by weighing your soul on a scale and if you have more good than bad you go to heaven.

Judaism - Probably going to hell. but then so are all the jews because they haven't been doing their sacrifices for thousands of years. If they go to heaven so will I.

Mormonism - Going to trailer park heaven (they have various levels, the Christians go to a mid level heaven)

Ba'hai - Ask Shunyadragon, but I think they believe everyone goes to heaven.


So basically Christianity is your best bet to not go to hell.

[Roy]

well

let's see:

Hinduism... / Buddhism... / Islam... / Judaism... / Mormonism... / Ba'hai...

You seem to have missed a few - try being more all-encompassing and adding the ancient Egyptian religion, the Norse religion, Suomenusku, Shintoism, mos maiorum, Aztec, Brahminism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Vodou, Odinani, Kuksu, and the Prince Philip Movement.

For starters.

[Sparko]

You seem to have missed a few - try being more all-encompassing and adding the ancient Egyptian religion, the Norse religion, Suomenusku, Shintoism, mos maiorum, Aztec, Brahminism, Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Vodou, Odinani, Kuksu, and the Prince Philip Movement.

For starters.

OK.

Egyptian. similar to Islam: weighs your soul against a feather. so it is pretty much a crap shoot.

Norse: Pretty much depends on if you are a good warrior or not.

Aztek: same as Norse. good warrior good afterlife

Shintoism: Not very clear on the afterlife, but as far as I can tell not dependent on your beliefs, but your actions in life.

Suomenusku: very vague. not sure about it.

the others I am not familiar with. Any of them claim that you are damned unless you accept their salvation and that they are the only way to a good afterlife?

[37818]

Yes, those are some of the myriad different definitions of God that Christians use.

Well, only one Christian view is true. I was only referring to one Christian view, not a myriad of views.

Unitarian - Arian, denies the deity of God's Son.
Tritheism denies that there is only one God.
Modelism denies the distinct Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Only the Trinity view takes into account the truth of whole counsel of God.

[Roy]

OK.

Egyptian. similar to Islam: weighs your soul against a feather. so it is pretty much a crap shoot.

Norse: Pretty much depends on if you are a good warrior or not.

Aztek: same as Norse. good warrior good afterlife

Shintoism: Not very clear on the afterlife, but as far as I can tell not dependent on your beliefs, but your actions in life.

Suomenusku: very vague. not sure about it.

the others I am not familiar with. Any of them claim that you are damned unless you accept their salvation and that they are the only way to a good afterlife?

IIRC one of the Egyptian myths held that non-believers were eaten by the serpent Apep after death and so didn't get an afterlife at all.

[Roy]

Well, only one Christian view is true...

...and it isn't yours.

[37818]

...and it isn't yours.

Why? If so it must contradict something that is in fact true. Now what do you know it to be? What is actually true matters.

[Sparko]

IIRC one of the Egyptian myths held that non-believers were eaten by the serpent Apep after death and so didn't get an afterlife at all.

so then no worse than if atheism is right, then.

Basically, no I have not investigated all religions. but of the ones that I have, either it doesn't really matter if I adhere to them or not, or they really have no evidence to support them that I am aware of. Christianity has pretty good evidence in my opinion (even before I was a Christian) and it basically says to accept a free gift of eternal life, so it is pretty easy. Seems like the best bet. YMMV.

[Tassman]

so then no worse than if atheism is right, then.

Basically, no I have not investigated all religions. but of the ones that I have, either it doesn't really matter if I adhere to them or not, or they really have no evidence to support them that I am aware of. Christianity has pretty good evidence in my opinion (even before I was a Christian) and it basically says to accept a free gift of eternal life, so it is pretty easy. Seems like the best bet. YMMV.

So "eternal life" is the big draw-card. Apart from “because the bible tells me so” is there any reason to think that eternal life is even possible?