Pascal's Wager: What Have I Lost?

[Starlight]

Since my conversion I have become, over all, a better person. A better son, father, and employee. More generous, less selfish and more kind.

One of the guys at my old workplace converted to Buddhism, and in everyone's view it seemed to do him a world of good in terms of him becoming a much nicer person.

In the stories of a lot of people who have converted from Christianity or Islam to atheism, I often see them talking about a sense of freedom that it gained for them in terms of a great weight of a judgmental-deity lifted off their shoulders. Since I was a liberal Christian, I always viewed God as more forgiving than judgmental, so that was never something that worried me personally.

I wouldn't say my own conversion from Christianity to atheism has had any big effects on my life. I think the biggest downside has been the social loss of losing regular church attendance as a tool for meeting new people and making new friends. The biggest upside is I no longer have the constant worrying about "what if God doesn't really exist" and "why doesn't he seem to ever speak to me?", and also that I don't waste any financial resources and fewer time resources on religion.

If there turns out to be some sort of afterlife and there exists a judgmental God in it, then I assume that if he's rational he will give out rewards based on how rational people were during their lives and/or how nice they were to others. If he's an irrational judge, then who knows, probably everyone who didn't worship him in his manifestation as Ganesha the Elephant God will be stuffed and will get reincarnated as mice rather than elephants.

[Tassman]

I don't see how you get that from what I said. Never said a word about pretending to believe.

If the question to a Christian is, what if you're wrong, what do you have to lose, then why can't the same "what if" question be asked of an unbeliever?

Well all that can be said, in the unlikely event of being confronted by the Almighty, is that I was sincere in my disbelief. Would a compassionate, rational deity reward insincerity?

[Starlight]

Would a compassionate, rational deity reward insincerity?

Amount of belief in something that was lacking evidence is not a rewards metric any sane entity would use. I can understand something like "amount of love for others" beings a metric, or something like "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged". But amount of belief in invisible beings as a metric of judgment? Sounds pretty dumb and highly unlikely.

[Tassman]

Amount of belief in something that was lacking evidence is not a rewards metric any sane entity would use. I can understand something like "amount of love for others" beings a metric, or something like "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged". But amount of belief in invisible beings as a metric of judgment? Sounds pretty dumb and highly unlikely.

Exactly! You can't force belief and to be punished for not having it is absurd.

[firstfloor]

Except I wasn't cured my first 37 years as an agnostic. How long exactly does this self-knowledge and cure of yours take?

[firstfloor]

The thing that comes to my mind are the individuals that have died for their beliefs. Did they have their thumbs in their mouths as, for example, their throats are cut or their pastors and other leaders are murdered in front of them?

[mossrose]

Well all that can be said, in the unlikely event of being confronted by the Almighty, is that I was sincere in my disbelief. Would a compassionate, rational deity reward insincerity?

He would give you exactly what you deserve.

[mossrose]

One of the guys at my old workplace converted to Buddhism, and in everyone's view it seemed to do him a world of good in terms of him becoming a much nicer person.

In the stories of a lot of people who have converted from Christianity or Islam to atheism, I often see them talking about a sense of freedom that it gained for them in terms of a great weight of a judgmental-deity lifted off their shoulders. Since I was a liberal Christian, I always viewed God as more forgiving than judgmental, so that was never something that worried me personally.

I wouldn't say my own conversion from Christianity to atheism has had any big effects on my life. I think the biggest downside has been the social loss of losing regular church attendance as a tool for meeting new people and making new friends. The biggest upside is I no longer have the constant worrying about "what if God doesn't really exist" and "why doesn't he seem to ever speak to me?", and also that I don't waste any financial resources and fewer time resources on religion.

If there turns out to be some sort of afterlife and there exists a judgmental God in it, then I assume that if he's rational he will give out rewards based on how rational people were during their lives and/or how nice they were to others. If he's an irrational judge, then who knows, probably everyone who didn't worship him in his manifestation as Ganesha the Elephant God will be stuffed and will get reincarnated as mice rather than elephants.

I don't believe you were ever a believer. If you spent the whole time you "were" waiting for God to speak to you, and if you were attending church only to meet new friends then you don't and never did have the slightest idea about what being a Christian really is.

[DesertBerean]

The Egyptian Christians killed by the ISIS might disagree with that.

[Sparko]

You obviously thought I was talking about bravery. Instead, what I had in mind is the idea that a Christian needs God or Jesus like a cripple needs a stick. The ailment is the religion and self knowledge is what happens to a person as they are cured.

Yes, I need God like a cripple needs a stick. the only difference between us is that I realize it and you don't. That is why you are still crawling through the sewer.

[Sparko]

Exactly! You can't force belief and to be punished for not having it is absurd.

who said anything like that? God doesn't punish you for not believing. you are already condemned for your sins, your own actions. believing is just a drowning man grabbing a rope tossed to him. If you don't grab the rope the guy tossing it isn't punishing you for not grabbing it, you are punishing yourself for not grabbing it.

[Carrikature]

Why is it irrelevant? If it's ok to ask the question of a believer, why isn't it ok to ask the same question to an unbeliever?

The unbeliever has an awful lot more to lose by living an unbelieving lifestyle than a Christian has in living a believing lifestyle.

Because what you might lose is irrelevant to belief. You don't believe things just in case. That's not how it works. Asking about stakes doesn't change belief. It just establishes how diligent you should be when searching for the right answer.


And who said it was ok to ask the question of a believer? It's a stupid question no matter who is asking.

[Carrikature]

I don't see how you get that from what I said. Never said a word about pretending to believe.

If the question to a Christian is, what if you're wrong, what do you have to lose, then why can't the same "what if" question be asked of an unbeliever?

Maybe you should look up Pascal's Wager. It sounds like you're missing a lot of context inherent in the concept.

[Starlight]

I don't believe you were ever a believer.

I often struggle to believe you're Canadian. People in Canada are famously kind, nice, and polite.

[Carrikature]

I don't believe you were ever a believer. If you spent the whole time you "were" waiting for God to speak to you, and if you were attending church only to meet new friends then you don't and never did have the slightest idea about what being a Christian really is.

One of the more uncharitable way to read things. Spent the whole time? Really?