"Irrefutable Proof" and "Corroboration"

[Hamster]

Yeah the issue isn't really as two dimensional as just being able to see them/touch them. I don't reject the existence of Mormon angels because I can't shake hands with them, for example

[Sparko]

No. Why would God be afraid of evidence?

Then why are YOU afraid of evidence? Why do you disparage anyone who seeks evidence? Any true evidence will corroborate the bible, won't it? I am confident that it will.

But you guys seem afraid and dismissive of any evidence and claim all you need it blind faith. To me, that is exactly what Satan would want those he is deceiving to say. Why look at evidence when you can blindly believe a lie?

[nrajeff]

Then why are YOU afraid of evidence?

---I doubt he is afraid of evidence. In fact, the group that is most obviously afraid of evidence is the anti-BOM cult--they are desperate to NOT acknowledge ANY evidence that supports ANY Book of Mormon claim. Why? Simple: Admitting that there is ANY such evidence opens a very scary door. If they admit even one BOM-supporting evidence, then they might have to admit another in the future, then another, and that would make their attacks on the BOM very complicated and problematic. So it's just easier for them to cover their ears and eyes and yell "I see nothing!" It is not in their interest to admit that any evidence supporting any BOM claim exists, so they are desperate to deny, deny.

Why do you disparage anyone who seeks evidence?

--Seeking the evidence that comes from the Holy Spirit is not something LDS people disparage. In fact, YOU disparage OUR challenge to people to seek that evidence. And even some of you ALDS say that WE have searched for evidence in New York, Mexico, and Central America, and that if we had discovered something that proved the BOM to be legit, we would be shouting it from the rooftops. So if you are right about that, then it seems we don't disparage seeking evidence, right? (Of course, not all ALDS claims are accurate, so.....)

Any true evidence will corroborate the bible, won't it?

---It should, generally speaking, but it might refute some people's beliefs about the Bible. For example, there could already be true evidence about the age of the Earth, but to a Young-Earth Creationist, that won't count as true evidence. It doesn't refute the Bible, but it refutes his interpretation of a Bible passage.

But you guys seem afraid and dismissive of any evidence and claim all you need it blind faith. To me, that is exactly what Satan would want those he is deceiving to say. Why look at evidence when you can blindly believe a lie?

---Are you open-minded enough to see that there is another possible scenario? If a person's faith rises and falls depending on what the Smithsonian thinks it has discovered, then that is not good, because discoveries are later found to be mistakes or frauds on a fairly regular basis. That is exactly what Satan would want people to put their faith in---the conclusions of men who are all too often agnostics, or, worse, fanatical Christians. When the James Ossuary was "discovered," some weak-faith Christians probably increased their faith in the veracity of "Christianity." What is the status of their faith now? That's why Jesus told Thomas "You believe because you saw Me. BLESSED are those who believe WITHOUT having seen."

Which kind of faith do you think impresses Jesus more?

a) "I believe because the Smithsonian found something they currently claim supports You."
b) "I believe because I trust what the Holy Spirit has validated about You."

Choose this day which of those 2 you wanna put your faith in.

[Cow Poke]

---I doubt he is afraid of evidence. In fact, the group that is most obviously afraid of evidence is the anti-BOM cult-

So, you're a BoM cult, and we're anti you? you such a funny funny guy

-they are desperate to NOT acknowledge ANY evidence that supports ANY Book of Mormon claim. Why? Simple: Admitting that there is ANY such evidence opens a very scary door.

Why don't you produce some evidence first, and we'll see how scary it is.

If they admit even one BOM-supporting evidence, then they might have to admit another in the future, then another, and that would make their attacks on the BOM very complicated and problematic.

If you had "smoking gun" evidence, you would have produced it long ago. So, what are we talking about here.. corroborating evidence? Anything still on this planet?

So it's just easier for them to cover their ears and eyes and yell "I see nothing!" It is not in their interest to admit that any evidence supporting any BOM claim exists, so they are desperate to deny, deny.

So why this shift to "evidence"? I thought the test was praying, and the Holy Spirit would confirm. The Holy Spirit has confirmed to me that Smith was a false prophet, and the BoM is false. Isn't that "the test". Is there evidence needed beyond that?

--Seeking the evidence that comes from the Holy Spirit is not something LDS people disparage. In fact, YOU disparage OUR challenge to people to seek that evidence.

Absolutely false. I prayed. I got the confirmation.

And even some of you ALDS say that WE have searched for evidence in New York, Mexico, and Central America, and that if we had discovered something that proved the BOM to be legit, we would be shouting it from the rooftops. So if you are right about that, then it seems we don't disparage seeking evidence, right? (Of course, not all ALDS claims are accurate, so.....)

So... you are FOR or AGAINST evidence? And you're admitting that you searched and found none, and you want to enter THAT into evidence?

---Are you open-minded enough to see that there is another possible scenario? If a person's faith rises and falls depending on what the Smithsonian thinks it has discovered, then that is not good, because discoveries are later found to be mistakes or frauds on a fairly regular basis. That is exactly what Satan would want people to put their faith in---the conclusions of men who are all too often agnostics, or, worse, fanatical Christians. When the James Ossuary was "discovered," some weak-faith Christians probably increased their faith in the veracity of "Christianity." What is the status of their faith now? That's why Jesus told Thomas "You believe because you saw Me. BLESSED are those who believe WITHOUT having seen."

So, now you're AGAINST evidence again?

Which kind of faith do you think impresses Jesus more?

a) "I believe because the Smithsonian found something they currently claim supports You."
b) "I believe because I trust what the Holy Spirit has validated about You."

Choose this day which of those 2 you wanna put your faith in.

c) "the step out of the boat kind"

[Sparko]

---I doubt he is afraid of evidence. In fact, the group that is most obviously afraid of evidence is the anti-BOM cult--they are desperate to NOT acknowledge ANY evidence that supports ANY Book of Mormon claim. Why? Simple: Admitting that there is ANY such evidence opens a very scary door. If they admit even one BOM-supporting evidence, then they might have to admit another in the future, then another, and that would make their attacks on the BOM very complicated and problematic. So it's just easier for them to cover their ears and eyes and yell "I see nothing!" It is not in their interest to admit that any evidence supporting any BOM claim exists, so they are desperate to deny, deny.

OK, where IS this evidence we keep ignoring? Has any bit of evidence been given that hasn't been shown to be a fraud, or something taken completely out of historical context?

--Seeking the evidence that comes from the Holy Spirit is not something LDS people disparage. In fact, YOU disparage OUR challenge to people to seek that evidence. And even some of you ALDS say that WE have searched for evidence in New York, Mexico, and Central America, and that if we had discovered something that proved the BOM to be legit, we would be shouting it from the rooftops. So if you are right about that, then it seems we don't disparage seeking evidence, right? (Of course, not all ALDS claims are accurate, so.....)

Sour grapes. The LDS has tried in the past to find evidence, and has none, so the next best thing is to claim that evidence is not needed and you should rely soley on blind faith. If there ever WAS any legitimate evidence found, the story would change quite dramatically and the LDS church WOULD shout it from the rooftops. Kinda like Glen Beck on his little show with the "evidence" that he presented that has all been shown to be fraudulent. oops.

[OtherCheek]

OK, where IS this evidence we keep ignoring? Has any bit of evidence been given that hasn't been shown to be a fraud, or something taken completely out of historical context?

I don't think you've shown any evidence to be a fraud. Except maybe in your own unbelieving mind.

[Cow Poke]

Could you please refresh our minds, then?
What evidence has been presented that we have rejected?

[Hamster]

OC rejects thousands of religions, I guess he must have an unbelieving mind

[Cow Poke]

OC rejects thousands of religions, I guess he must have an unbelieving mind

Interesting point -- an unbelieving mind is a HEALTHY thing when it comes to a lot of emails you might get, especially those from that nice Christian lady in [name the country in Africa] who's recently departed husband was a high ranking military officer and she wants to give me millions of dollars that he saved from the ruthless dictator. All I have to do is give her my bank account information! She's a CHRISTIAN! She SAYS so!

[OtherCheek]

OC rejects thousands of religions, I guess he must have an unbelieving mind

There are none that offer me more to believe IN than the LDS faith. Not just believe blindly, but also test--which I have done.

[Cow Poke]

There are none that offer me more to believe IN than the LDS faith.

How do you know that? Have you studied them all? Were you not "born into" Mormonism?

[OtherCheek]

Interesting point -- an unbelieving mind is a HEALTHY thing when it comes to a lot of emails you might get, especially those from that nice Christian lady in [name the country in Africa] who's recently departed husband was a high ranking military officer and she wants to give me millions of dollars that he saved from the ruthless dictator. All I have to do is give her my bank account information! She's a CHRISTIAN! She SAYS so!

So, what is the difference (as you see it), between believing in a fraud, vs. believing in the real deal?

[OtherCheek]

How do you know that? Have you studied them all?

Pretty much. Yes.

Were you not "born into" Mormonism?

Yep. Thankfully

[Cow Poke]

So, what is the difference (as you see it), between believing in a fraud, vs. believing in the real deal?

Please expound on the question, if you don't mind, OC. Not sure what you're asking. I mean, if I know something to be fraudulent, it would be silly for me to believe in it, right?

[OtherCheek]

Please expound on the question, if you don't mind, OC. Not sure what you're asking. I mean, if I know something to be fraudulent, it would be silly for me to believe in it, right?

How would you know?