There's No England Now...

[Darth Executor]

I'll burn the hide off you with a hot iron if you call me that again.
All better?

No, centrist.

[Sparko]

I don't think excluding the unrepentant from your church is quite the same has holding 'GOD HATES FAGS' signs outside of a soldier's funeral.

so now you have gone from moving goal posts to creating straw men. What has gotten into you?

That passage is describing an internal matter among professing Christians and says absolutely nothing about the rest of society at large.
I want a passage that describes fighting the sin of the unredeemed via the law/courts/anything.


My original request: I'd be interested in any N.T passages that make it your job to fight against other people's sin.
You provided several passages that talk about fighting against personal sin.
You provided one passage that talks about excluding people from the church.

I'll grant you one point based on a technicality; however, in context we were talking about gay marriage (or health care) so I was intending to communicate civic law.

I provided some verses that talked about fighting evil. External evil.

I am not wasting any more time on your little idiotic crusade to tell Christians to sit on their butts and let the world go to hell because we might hurt their feelings to tell them they are sinning, or wanting to protect our way of life by passing laws against crime and sin.

[Meh Gerbil]

so now you have gone from moving goal posts to creating straw men. What has gotten into you?

Aren't the people who hold signs at funerals fighting evil?
How is that any more or less offensive than going into a voting booth, thinking 'ewww, gay' and pushing the 'NO' vote that restricts homosexuals?

I don't know where the right answer is on this issue.
I'm still working through some of these things.
Thanks for the discussion.

[Darth Executor]

Aren't the people who hold signs at funerals fighting evil?
How is that any more or less offensive than going into a voting booth, thinking 'ewww, gay' and pushing the 'NO' vote that restricts homosexuals?

Sounds to me like you don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality at all if you can't tell the difference between that and picketing a soldier's funeral. As far as I can tell your attempts to do things the Amazing Rando way has (predictably) ended up corrupting you instead.

[Meh Gerbil]

Sounds to me like you don't think there's anything wrong with homosexuality at all if you can't tell the difference between that and picketing a soldier's funeral. As far as I can tell your attempts to do things the Amazing Rando way has (predictably) ended up corrupting you instead.

Understanding our role in a fallen world is knowledge worth wrestling with, don't you think?
I'm not going to apologize for publically thinking through these things - especially on a theology forum.

It does gratify me to know that you guys have it all figured out.
It gives me hope.

[Sparko]

OK I know I said I was going to stop discussing this with you Gerbz but I have to know...

How the heck does voting against gay marriage stop my gay neighbor from having healthcare?

[Meh Gerbil]

OK I know I said I was going to stop discussing this with you Gerbz but I have to know...
How the heck does voting against gay marriage stop my gay neighbor from having healthcare?

You're very weak, Sparky, so very weak.

Healthcare insurance is granted to spouses at just about any decent job so when you vote against gay marriage you could be blocking someone who is seriously ill from getting the healthcare that they require. I'm not saying it is entirely rational but to some people it appears as if you're openly campaigning against an ill person getting the help she requires. As someone who recently was very ill I'm sure you can understand - how willing would you be to speak to your neighbor about personal matters (spiritual things) if he had voted to block your healthcare while you very ill? I should think you'd be justified in writing him off as a jerk, no?

And yes, I already know you're aiming for the technical: But blocking marriage doesn't stop her from going to a doctor.... nonsense.
I'll put you on ignore for 15 minutes if you decide to be that pedantic.

[Sparko]

You're very weak, Sparky, so very weak.

Healthcare insurance is granted to spouses at just about any decent job so when you vote against gay marriage you could be blocking someone who is seriously ill from getting the healthcare that they require. I'm not saying it is entirely rational but to some people it appears as if you're openly campaigning against an ill person getting the help she requires. As someone who recently was very ill I'm sure you can understand - how willing would you be to speak to your neighbor about personal matters (spiritual things) if he had voted to block your healthcare while you very ill? I should think you'd be justified in writing him off as a jerk, no?

Healthcare and whether it is granted to spouses has nothing to to with law. It is a decision of Insurance companies and/or the companies that you work for. Insurance has been extended to domestic partners for quite a while before Gay marriage was ever even on the books for a vote.

And even if they can't get on their unspouse's insurance, how is that any different from anyone else who is living together and not married? Am I blocking their healthcare too? I am not married and I had healthcare. Anyone else can too, whether they are gay or not.

[Jedidiah]

I'd be interested in any N.T passages that make it your job to fight against other people's sin.
Serious question, that, since you may actually find some.

The question is not 'should we as Christians try to force others to act the way the Bible tells us to?' The question is 'should we as Christians support society in trying to normalize behavior we (and according to you that includes homosexuals) see as sinful?'

At present I do not even know whether or not I know anyone who is homosexual. If I did I would not treat them any differently than I do now. But, if they ask me about homosexuality and society I will answer honestly. I will continue to treat them the same whether they feel the same way or not. It is not about trying to force someone to behave a certain way. It is only about public support for sinful behavior. I will oppose homosexual marriage as I have in the past. I will oppose trying in any way to normalize homosexuality. I will oppose the normalization of sinful heterosexual behavior even though that fight seems to have been lost. I will oppose casual divorce even though that fight seems to have been lost long ago. None of this has anything to do with making people behave in any particular way, it has to do with public acceptance of wrong behavior.

[Jedidiah]

That is addressed to the church for church members.
I don't see anything in there about petitioning Congress.

The Church has never petitioned Congress about homosexuality to my knowledge. You are condemning Church with society again.

[Sparko]

Also we are to be salt and light. To let ourselves shine as a beacon to the world. If we don't stand up for our values, voice our beliefs, and just sit by and allow sin to run rampant without even trying to curb it, then what kind of light are we? What good are we?

[Jedidiah]

I don't think excluding the unrepentant from your church is quite the same has holding 'GOD HATES FAGS' signs outside of a soldier's funeral.

Try addressing Christians rather than pretenders. Virtually all Christians of various denominations oppose this sort of wickedness.

[Jedidiah]

Aren't the people who hold signs at funerals fighting evil?

NO! They are taking part in evil.

[Darth Executor]

Understanding our role in a fallen world is knowledge worth wrestling with, don't you think?
I'm not going to apologize for publically thinking through these things - especially on a theology forum.

It does gratify me to know that you guys have it all figured out.
It gives me hope.

You sure love to talk like you have it all figured out just as much as the rest of us do, even though you let your gay friends bully you out of even voting (and that's with the most LGBBQ friendly republican ever nominated at that). You're all bark, and when meeting the slightest resistance you then fold like a deck chair.

[Meh Gerbil]

The Church has never petitioned Congress about homosexuality to my knowledge. You are condemning Church with society again.

You keep accusing me of being confused on that issue.
You've yet to make the case.

Christians are the driving force behind these items:
England: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-gay-marriage
US Supreme Court: http://www.ibtimes.com/
US Supreme Court: http://www.christianpost.com/news/ch...ruling-141464/
Presbyterians: http://theaquilareport.com/resolutio...-sex-marriage/
DOMA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

So yeah, the church has been riding the gay marriage thing pretty hard for the past decade.