There's No England Now...

[Meh Gerbil]

You sure love to talk like you have it all figured out just as much as the rest of us do, even though you let your gay friends bully you out of even voting (and that's with the most LGBBQ friendly republican ever nominated at that). You're all bark, and when meeting the slightest resistance you then fold like a deck chair.

I'm sorry.

[Sparko]

You keep accusing me of being confused on that issue.
You've yet to make the case.

Christians are the driving force behind these items:
England: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-gay-marriage
US Supreme Court: http://www.ibtimes.com/
US Supreme Court: http://www.christianpost.com/news/ch...ruling-141464/
Presbyterians: http://theaquilareport.com/resolutio...-sex-marriage/
DOMA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

So yeah, the church has been riding the gay marriage thing pretty hard for the past decade.

I am against polygamy, incestual marriage, bestial marrage, and pedophilial marriage too. I suppose when they come up, you will vote "yes" to show God's love for them?

[Darth Executor]

I'm sorry.

You haven't done anything to me.

[Mountain Man]

Look up Ezekiel 16 and see why Sodom was actually condemned.
Also, read the gospels and compare everything Jesus said about homosexuality with what he had to say about being judgmental.

I understand putting homosexuality at the top of your list; however, we should endeavor to emphasis what Christ told us to emphasize.

Jesus didn't directly address homosexuality simply because it wasn't a concern of the day, just like he didn't directly address atheism, or other modern concerns. Basically, those things didn't exist in ANE culture.

However, the Law of Moses pulled no punches when it came to the issue of homosexuality -- one of the few sins in the Bible to be called an abomination -- and the Apostle Paul condemned it in the harshest of terms.

There does seem to be hierarchy of sins in the Bible, and homosexuality appears to be considered among the worst of the worst.

[Jedidiah]

You keep accusing me of being confused on that issue.
You've yet to make the case.

Christians are the driving force behind these items:
England: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-gay-marriage
US Supreme Court: http://www.ibtimes.com/
US Supreme Court: http://www.christianpost.com/news/ch...ruling-141464/
Presbyterians: http://theaquilareport.com/resolutio...-sex-marriage/
DOMA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

So yeah, the church has been riding the gay marriage thing pretty hard for the past decade.

Many Christians are indeed active in opposing public acceptance of a sinful lifestyle. I am opposed to public acceptance of a sinful life style (and not only homosexuality normalized, but many areas of sin already accepted or not yet accepted). This is people who are part of the Church, and if that is all you are talking about, yes the Church as part of society opposes these sinful behaviors being normalized. That is not the same at all as condemning individuals, which is what you started with.

The perhaps tired old saw of "love the sinner and hate the sin" is what you are caught up on. Christians, and the Church, are in opposition to normalizing homosexual behavior. They still, in many cases, reach out to homosexuals to aid in their fight against the urge to live in sin. The Church supports me, and all heterosexual people in my/their fight against the urge to live in sin. How is it wicked in one case and not in the other.

Unless you have successfully trolled me, I see you struggling with working out what is the way to deal with a problem that seems to be self contradictory. I think you are wrong in your approach, but I appreciate the seemingly sincere effort to put Christian ethics to work in "real" life. Keep up the good fight, but understand that many of us fighting the same fight do not see it the same way as you seem to.

I hope this is coherent.

[Starlight]

except there has been less bullying, name-calling and social ostracism for being gay and yet the suicide rates are still 2 to 6 times higher than heterosexuals

There is still a fairly high level of social ostracism and bullying for being gay. You guys seem to consistently (mis)portray some sort of current universal social acceptance of gay people, while at the same time being virulently homophobic yourselves.

One of the interesting points the journal article I linked to made was that one effect of increased social awareness of homosexuality, has been a reduction in the average age that gay youth "come out" from their 20s down to their early teens. Unfortunately what homophobia does exist in our society seems to be at a maximum among adolescent youth, as kids are inclined to bully other kids who are different to them, and don't yet possess the levels of concern for other and appreciations for human rights that they might later come to possess as adults:

The early adolescent years are characterized by heightened self- and peer regulation regarding (especially) gender and sexuality norms (Mulvey & Killen 2015, Pasco 2011). During adolescence, youth in general report stronger prejudicial attitudes and more frequent homophobic behavior at younger ages (Poteat & Anderson 2012). Young adolescents may be developmentally susceptible to social exclusion behavior and attitudes, whereas older youth are able to make more sophisticated evaluative judgments regarding human rights, fairness, and prejudice (e.g., Horn 2006, Nesdale 2001). Therefore, today’s LGBT youth typically come out during a developmental period characterized by strong peer influence and opinion (Brechwald & Prinstein 2011, Steinberg & Monahan 2007) and are more likely to face peer victimization when they come out (D’Augelli et al. 2002, Pilkington & D’Augelli 1995). Such victimization has well-documented psychological consequences (Birkett et al. 2009, Poteat & Espelage 2007, Russell et al. 2014).

About the same or higher than when I was growing up when there was more bullying, name-calling and ostracism of gays.

The evidence you've provided to support this claim is not particularly convincing. The awareness of the problems of prejudice, stigma and suicide among gay people has only become well-established over the past couple of decades, and the quality of data gathered on the subject has been rapidly improving. I would say that figures given in the present are likely to be an order of magnitude more accurate than figures given 20 years ago. You're also in danger of comparing apples and oranges if you pick two random studies and compare them - they will have used different methodologies and a different sample group. The review article I linked to cited dozens and dozens of studies that have been done that consistently show a decrease in social prejudice levels lead to improvements in the mental health of gay people. It found the best mental health occurs among gay kids who successfully date people of the same sex with parental and peer support for their relationships.

[Carrikature]

Just about everyone Carrikature? I'm old enough to remember when just about everyone believed that things like fornication, homosexuality, promiscuity, out of wedlock births, etc... were morally wrong. What happen to those baselines? Why is consent a line that can not also be crossed? Look at Starlight, he too holds to the standard of consent, yet he would allow for the killing of infants - of course without their consent.

My baselines are far more fundamental than that. Simple things like 'we all want to be free to live our life' and 'do unto others'. I'm pretty sure I've made this clear in the past.

[Starlight]

The question is 'should we as Christians support society in trying to normalize behavior we (and according to you that includes homosexuals) see as sinful?'

Surely the question is "should Christians treat others with love and compassion?". A lot of Christians currently appear to prefer to try to guilt-trip and shame gay people to the point where gay people get depressed and take to alcohol or drugs to seek escape from the prejudice they experience, or just kill themselves.

At present I do not even know whether or not I know anyone who is homosexual.

I assume you mean that you've personally met? After all, Leonhard and others on this site are gay.

[seer]

My baselines are far more fundamental than that. Simple things like 'we all want to be free to live our life' and 'do unto others'. I'm pretty sure I've made this clear in the past.

So? These baselines, like any others invented by men, can be changed at will -and often are.

[stfoskey15]

Just about everyone Carrikature? I'm old enough to remember when just about everyone believed that things like fornication, homosexuality, promiscuity, out of wedlock births, etc... were morally wrong.

It's worth noting that even when most people considered those things immoral, they still happened quite frequently. For example, it is estimated that between 30 and 40% of women in New England in the late 1700s were pregnant at the time they got married. And according to a 1938 study, 52% of men and 24% of women had sex before they got married. I'm in a public place so I won't post links now, but I can post links for those and other sources later if you want.

[Carrikature]

The interesting thing about the condemnation of gluttony in Ezekiel is that being overfed and not helping the poor was cited as the reason for Sodom's condemnation and not the more popular view of teh gays. I think Ezekiel paints view of Sodom that perfectly matches present day America and the issues raised therein are seldom handled in the churches I've attended whereas teh gays get lots and lots of air time.

Small wonder.

[seer]

It's worth noting that even when most people considered those things immoral, they still happened quite frequently. For example, it is estimated that between 30 and 40% of women in New England in the late 1700s were pregnant at the time they got married. And according to a 1938 study, 52% of men and 24% of women had sex before they got married. I'm in a public place so I won't post links now, but I can post links for those and other sources later if you want.

Sure, men are weak. We often sin, but I suspect that there was real guilt and regret. That is quite different from a society accepting these things wholesale. Remember I grew up in the 50s and 60s and the expected moral norms were much different.

[Darth Executor]

Here ya go:

That has nothing to do with gluttony, it's saying Sodom didn't feed the poor despite having plenty. The having plenty isn't a criticims, it's to show they could feed the poor and chose not to.

It's also supremely stupid to compare Sodom with modern day america. Not just America but most of the world does a great job feeding the poor, mostly thanks to advancements in technology that have made genuine starvation nearly extinct. Pretty much the only places where you can die of starvation these days are warzones because they make food distribution extremely dangerous.

[firstfloor]

I'm sorry.

Bravo.

[Carrikature]

So? These baselines, like any others invented by men, can be changed at will -and often are.

Those baselines have never changed. They show up time and again throughout history. I call them fundamental for a reason.


The point was that they're generally accepted by everyone. They are.